Which area of components to spend the most $ on? Boy I was wrong all my life!
I have been an audio junkie for about 25 years. All those years, I have read plenty of discussion posts and recommendations where to spend the most money on. The majority, even the experts recommend to spend the most money on speakers. Up to as high as 60% of the total budget.Example: CEO of PS Audio-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYwL7vPkPhg I believed this all my life. Today, my eyes are opened. My total budget is about $15K.Before today, my system was:Speakers-Revel F36 Concerta 2 (For the money, this is the best speakers I’ve heard. I like it more than my previous Dynaudio Contour 30)Integrated Amp-Marantz PM-10 (Class D, balanced, 400wpc at 4ohms)CD Player-Oppo UDP 205 & Marantz CD 6005 (Some of the best in class)Line conditioner-Furman Elite PFi 15Cables-Kimber 8TC Speaker Cables (Sorry, not a cable nut. I’d rather spend money elsewhere) I upgraded my front end CD player to... Marantz SA-11S3. I was BLOWN away! This is the greatest upgrade I have ever heard in my life. For 25 years, I was taught to spend the most in speakers. Sorry! It’s the FRONT END! The best source you can afford. The purity transcends down the river. I am blown away by the sheer improvement in detail, clarity, depth, the air around the instruments. My philosophy has changed.
With the $500 CD player on $10K speakers, main thing is it will sound bad. With the $10K CD player on the $500 speakers, it will sound like $500 speakers. (which to some folks will also sound bad, but different bad.) The other problem is you have to have some sort of AMPLIFIER included.. So is the amp high end? or another $500 gizmo. Seriously I would take my old used $250 DAC, plus a $40 eBay changer, $400 for 2 pair cables used amplifier ($2500) used preamp ($1500 ) and a $6000 pair of new speakers.
I totally agree with you. In my 25 years of audio upgrades and changes, my Marantz SA-11S3 too was the biggest upgrade that I have ever heard. It is built like a tank and the sound. Truly amazing!Due to this thread, I had a scenario in my mind. What would like better?
I own the Marantz SA11-S3 for my main system. Best CD player I've owned. It replaced my SA11-S2 which I thoroughly enjoyed. Almost sold the SA11-S2, until one day decided to compare it to my PS Audio Perfectwave CD transport which was hooked up to my Perfectwave DAC MKII in a second system. One song later, took out the PS Audio CD transport and put it up for sale, and kept the SA11-S2 in the second system. Proud owner of two awesome Marantz Reference CD players.
Spending $3k on outlets may be a reasonable expense for somebody that has speakers that cost $10k or more. Once you get to that level, $3k increase in the cost of speakers will likely be a marginal improvement. If, however, you have $2.5k speakers like me, adding $3k to the speaker budget will have a much more profound impact on the sound than spending the same $3k to upgrade your outlets. Everything is on a bell curve. Everything.
Spending $3000 on duplex outlets (on sale! retail was over $4500) changed my perception of what is important. (ten Furutech GTX-D Gold, eight Furutech GTX-D NCF Rhodium) Mainly that anyone claiming they have THE ANSWER for all, is confusing what worked for them, with some fantasy of ’universal law’.
"For 25 years, I was taught to spend the most in speakers. Sorry! It’s the FRONT END! The best source you can afford. The purity transcends down the river."
I am afraid, digital has to be quite expensive to sound acceptable, what you did you simply took it close to that. Many good points - recording, room, level the system already at, synergy. I no longer think in terms of upgrades, I am not going to upgrade anything in my current set up, I am going to build a new system over the years, so in this sense it is going to be in a state of flux for some time but it will still be sounding better while in the process. I think, I know the destination, where I want to be with my new system, the rest are minor details. Still, if you intend to keep them for long - speakers first, then either power amp or source, both is better.
On the other hand... I own a Marantz SA-10 and yeah it is wonderful etc... But my LP playback is also fine. No problems with either one. The great mystery seems to be... No one has figured out the one thing that made magic in THEIR system might be worthless in someone else’ system. PERIOD. I think most folks seem to get the junk some other guy found, might be no big deal. It is realizing the same is true for our own favorite steaming pile, if it were put in some other system. Take for example my latest spectacular find: Refrigerator magnetic white board.. under the CD changer. I would GUARANTEE nine out of ten others(probably more!) who might be so foolish to try it would find it worthless, or terrible. Not my problem. But at least I recognize the fact!! So take all your psychobabble about black goo magic cards, and whatever gizmo you found... and stop expecting to get praise as if those are the next coming. For you, maybe they work wonders... Realize the near infinitesimal chance they will do the same for somebody else. So back to the op.. Glad your gizmo worked for you. No need to claim it is the SOLUTION in the Audiophile Universe to all there is. (Do not mind me, I think it is the cold weather.. Cranky geesh.)
Everything matters when building a state of the art Hi-End Stereo system. Technology is great, meaning iPads, iPhones and streaming devices for general background music. But when it comes to Listening, put a Marantz SA-11S3 in the system and you’ll Hear what I mean. Takes digital to the best it can be and in my opinion better and more lively sound than analog setups.
the Marantz SA-11S3 player is the best sounding machine I’ve owned regardless of any price. And I have owned many great ones including the $20,000 Esoteric player, etc.
Difficult to list with percentage, but the most sensible parts of the components of a hi end sistem are the recordings, the room acoustics ( dimensions and treatment), the sources ( DAC/ Players/ streamer), the AC power, Speakers and their best positioning, and class of amps ( A first ). Cables and other accessories comes later.
I replaced the MIT Magnum jumpers on my Totem Signatures with the NBS jumpers. The MIT’s were fairly long for a jumper and the NBS’s are fairly short and solid core wire. The difference in sound was quite dramatic!
dave_b2,224 posts01-26-2019 5:43pmNever thought I’d do this, but...hey GKait! Gotta riddle for ya. I changed out the jumpers on my speakers, MIT tails (12”) for NRG Omega’s (already owned) and not only did the resolution increase dramatically, but the PRaT improved as well. My amp seems even more dynamic and full sounding in addition to the increase in clarity and air. Why?
Another upgrade update on my system. As a skeptical cable fan, I decided to take a chance on upgrading the connection between my Marantz PM-10 Amp to SA-11S3 SACD Player, from Audioquest Cobra RCA interconnects to Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 XLRs. This upgrade made me a believer. Bass is tighter and deeper, the background is jet black, and detail appears several notches higher.Someday I may upgrade my Kimber 8TC Speaker Cables!
Never thought I’d do this, but...hey GKait! Gotta riddle for ya. I changed out the jumpers on my speakers, MIT tails (12”) for NRG Omega’s (already owned) and not only did the resolution increase dramatically, but the PRaT improved as well. My amp seems even more dynamic and full sounding in addition to the increase in clarity and air. Why?
Yeah, I agree about the quality of the source component. I just replaced my 10-year old Audio Gd Dac 3SE (and also a Chord Mojo occasionally used for convenience) with a used Bricasti M1SE dac and I am *staggered* by the improvement in sound. Was using USB in all setups; will try network streamer next.
I haven't listened to a lot of current DACs so I am not advocating Bricasti over any competitors. But its sound is truly stunning across all kinds of recordings, including 1980s pop.
My speakers are a decade old open baffle from here (http://www.musicanddesign.com/NaOMini.html). (In those days everybody was trying Orion and its competitors open baffle speakers.)
Hi, I’ve been a music lover for 55 or so years and an audiophile for about 50 years. In my opinion, Paul McGowan of PS Audio is correct. While “GIGO” and “any system is only as strong as it’s weakest link” philosophies are both true, it seems to me that the engineering of transducers is the most difficult task and therefore generally the weakest link in audio reproduction. The amplification stages seem pretty mature by now. The digital front end is still a rather immature technology and is undergoing much change. Although vinyl can sound good and is undergoing a “resurgence fad”, I rarely listen to my large vinyl collection including some direct to disks because of the inconvenience and because I regard the platform as impractical because of it’s built in seemingly insurmountable physical limitations. The biggest problem I have in choosing equipment is a proper comparison environment. Well that is where I sit with audio opinion at the moment. Good luck everyone! 🙂
If you’re having trouble hearing the difference between Correct Polarity and Inverted Polarity I suspect your system probably needs a tune-up. Inverted Polarity lacks bass and proper focus. Crossovers are a separate issue. How do you know your system is in correct Absolute Polarity? Answer at 11.
I have a polarity switch and use it often. Much of the time in makes little difference.The fact is, particularly for rock, the song or album is mixed from discrete tracks, any of which may be reverse polarity, and certainly many songs have parts right and parts in reverse at the same time!I would say only about 20% of Rock albums I can actually notice a proper polarity. And some of those it is based on the vocals, some on the percussion instruments. And on NONE of them does the positive, or reverse sound ’bad’... But for those recording which do have a noticeable difference, the ’right’ one generally is slightly better sounding due to mainly better clarity. Then the FACT speaker crossovers alter the polarity to odd angles NOT 180! What good is polarity if your speakers alter the bass 120 off counterclockwise, at some peak frequency, mids 90 off clockwise, and the treble 250 counterclockwise? Did you ever actually look at some of the charts in Stereophile???
Gee, they couldn’t be the same brilliant audio engineers that are compressing the life out of recordings, could they? Maybe those are different brilliant audio engineers.
The Polarity issue is important, I’ll grant you that. It’s too bad there’s no standard for Polarity in the industry. However in terms of priority of importance, i.e., impact on sound quality, I rate the scattered background laser light problem higher than Polarity. Furthermore, you can now do something about scattered light getting into the detector whereas for most people there’s no practical solution for the Polarity on CDs being Inverted. If one has a Polarity switch goodie for him.
The Real Reason Some People Prefer Analog To Digital
There’s a problem that has been ignored by the entire music industry which I believe is really important for music-lovers that I think you my want to investigate. Approximately 35 years ago when digital media was introduced to the music consuming public as a media with “Perfect Sound Forever” the music industry made a huge screw up when it got the playback polarity of digital music on CDs and later DVDs, etc. in reversed (inverted polarity). On a purely random basis that means that digital media and files are heard in the wrong polarity approximately 85% of the time and either 92% wrong or correct when audio systems are set to a fixed playback polarity.
The result is that the music played in inverted polarity sounds harsh and two-dimensional. And that’s probably the major reason that some music-lovers still believe (without knowing the real reason) that analog sounds better than digital. Analog media plays in the correct polarity over 99.9% of the time but also sounds bad if played in inverted polarity. It’s difficult if not impossible to make meaningful comparisons of the fidelity and musicality of media and audio components when they aren’t playing in absolute polarity. The better the playback system the easier it is to hear the differences in polarity. Confusion over polarity may cause music-lovers to expend needless time and money trying to smooth out the irritating and flat sound of digital media when the real problem is music played in inverted polarity.
This should be an object lesson on how an entire industry with its experts and electrical engineers can get it wrong and not do anything about if for over 35 years and counting! So it should be an object lesson that the entire industry that creates recorded music and is based upon scientific principles continues to mostly get polarity wrong.
I've written two monographs that go into great detail about the problem at:http://www.AbsolutePolarity.com andhttp://www.PolarityGeorge.com. If you or anyone you know might be interested in developingThePerfect Polarizer™ that will detect and correct polarity in real-time, then please forward this email to them/encourage them to contact me, because I believe it could be accomplished with AI/App. Now, do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?”
The Real Reason Some People Prefer Analog To Digital
There’s a problem that has been ignored by the entire music industry which I believe is really important for music-lovers that I think you my want to investigate. Approximately 35 years ago when digital media was introduced to the music consuming public as a media with “Perfect Sound Forever” the music industry made a huge screw up when it got the playback polarity of digital music on CDs and later DVDs, etc. in reversed (inverted polarity). On a purely random basis that means that digital media and files are heard in the wrong polarity approximately 85% of the time and either 92% wrong or correct when audio systems are set to a fixed playback polarity.
The result is that the music played in inverted polarity sounds harsh and two-dimensional. And that’s probably the major reason that some music-lovers still believe (without knowing the real reason) that analog sounds better than digital. Analog media plays in the correct polarity over 99.9% of the time but also sounds bad if played in inverted polarity. It’s difficult if not impossible to make meaningful comparisons of the fidelity and musicality of media and audio components when they aren’t playing in absolute polarity. The better the playback system the easier it is to hear the differences in polarity. Confusion over polarity may cause music-lovers to expend needless time and money trying to smooth out the irritating and flat sound of digital media when the real problem is music played in inverted polarity.
This should be an object lesson on how an entire industry with its experts and electrical engineers can get it wrong and not do anything about if for over 35 years and counting! So it should be an object lesson that the entire industry that creates recorded music and is based upon scientific principles continues to mostly get polarity wrong.
I've written two monographs that go into great detail about the problem at:http://www.AbsolutePolarity.com andhttp://www.PolarityGeorge.com. If you or anyone you know might be interested in developingThePerfect Polarizer™ that will detect and correct polarity in real-time, then please forward this email to them/encourage them to contact me, because I believe it could be accomplished with AI/App. Now, do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?”
And I wrote it. that thread start. New ideas.. new places...Audio Circle is not longer the exclusive property of angry EE in their dotage, ranting away at the like of me... Well, still some.. but others as well!
Refrigerator magnets are the next big thing. Wait and see. Or 'hear'... as the case may be. They are way more pertinent to the site than... Worm holes ... which fill up when it rains. then worms are easy pick'ns for Robins. Robins also use tiny refrigerator magnets in their nests...
dave_b"you must understand so much more stuff than practically anyone else. We are so blessed to have your insights here on AGon."
You are indeed blessed, fortunate, and lucky so why don't you act that way instead of your continuous, incessant, and repeated attempts at smug "humor" and passive-agressive, sarcastic, and self-important language, assertions and claims.
Yes, Kat...we understand the difference. It was fiction. Why are you even fixating on such a trivial detail? If you have something interesting to say or can elaborate politely on a given subject, please do so. Smarmy usually masks smart...so why the games? Just converse cogently and make sense. I would love to hear some insights that you may have obtained over the years if they are relevant and help move the conversation forward. Random bursts of Katino waves are of little value and only create a sterile and unproductive atmosphere.
Jeepers, you studied astrophysics? Wow, you must understand so much more stuff than practically anyone else. We are so blessed to have your insights here on AGon. So tell us something illuminating and insightful. We need you so desperately to shed light on the mysteries of life!
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