At some point, folks need to be less critical of others with whom they disagree. Piling on with repeated posts is a form of abuse towards a member that the moderators regularly condemn and remedy by removing posts.
George has stated he has heard a variety of class D designs in a variety of threads. Maybe doing a small amount of research before posting questions about his not having done so is in order.
With my Merrill Audio Veritas class d amps I do not hear any musical shortcomings as some here/hear have speculated...That is of course within the confounds of my system and my musical priorities..The Veritas amps can produce that magical quality of live music being sorted out in front of me with none of that sugar coating of sound that just gets in the way of any high quality recording. I can't imagine someone ever thinking these amps are subpar in any possible way..unless you like that sort of glossed over sugary sound presentation.. Are they a perfect amp for all people? No...But such a beast does not exist.. I have talked with Merrill and he assures me the new proprietary Element amps of his design are a huge step up from the Veritas amps in every way that is musically important to me. If that be the case...they will be very special indeed. GaN technology just might bring that promised mythical beast of a near perfect amp within reach of the audiophile community at large..we shall see.I have my eyes set on the 114's when they become available late spring/early summer this year... 8)
Like I said, it’s owners like you that will be the first to jump into this new GaN technology once you realize what you’ve gotten used and missing out on.
"
that I completely fail to detect any of the sonic shortcomings that georgehifi claims exist on my amps due to traditional FET transistors, the switching frequency being too low and the filter used to remove this switching frequency being of poor quality."
Hi mapman,
This quote from one of georgehifi's previous posts is actually my words from a post that has since been deleted by a moderator for some unknown reason. I was referring to georgehifi's frequent comments criticizing good class D amps, which I consider myself to be a user of, as all having sonic shortcomings due to using traditional slower FET transistors, the switching frequencies being too low and poor quality filters used to remove these signal carrier frequencies. My point being my total failure to detect any sonic shortcomings in any of my 3 good quality class D amps despite his persistent claims that these shortcomings exist.
Nevertheless, I believe the questions from your last post, directed at georgehifi, remain very relevant questions:
George what specific amp or amps are you referring to in regards to "sonic shortcomings"? Two or 3 examples will do if you could.
Also what amp or amps specifically are you comparing with to reach that conclusion? What were the shortcomings of those?
Are you comparing apples/apples in terms of cost?
What are your reference recordings used to make the assessment?
Just to be clear I’m asking what you have specifically heard, not what you deduce from other sources.
Being a technical guy, I’m sure you can appreciate the value of being specific and not making generalized statements based on a limited sample. Georgehifi has consistently refused to answer all questions about his claims of sonic shortcomings in recent class D amps in general. He's failed to respond to requests to elaborate and be more specific on his claims of sonic shortcomings from myself, several others and now from yourself. Based on georgehifi's numerous responding posts on many class D threads, it's fairly obvious to me that he has little to no experience actually listening to good quality class D amps. I say this not only because his descriptions of what these claimed sonic shortcomings sound like are very vague but also on his obvious inability, and often just refusals to respond to requests, to be more specific in his descriptions of what these sonic shortcomings actually sound like. Because of the above, the complete lack of supporting evidence of his claims from any source and my and others' complete failure to detect these sonic shortcomings in any of our good quality class D amps, I've reached the baffling conclusion that he's fabricated his claims of sonic shortcomings for some unknown reason. Although he frequently states he'll buy class D amps once they are perfected, I now consider this an attempt to disguise his true prejudices against class D and possible ulterior motives for his statements, unsupported theories and comments.
that I completely fail to detect any of the sonic shortcomings that georgehifi claims exist on my amps due to traditional FET transistors, the switching frequency being too low and the filter used to remove this switching frequency being of poor quality.
That’s your opinion with your hearing, there are countless others that have the opposite opinion to you. The rest of your bs post is just flaming and has no relevance.
Yes, personalities abound in these forum threads. And yes, folks have what one might call “signature statements” that amply showcase their strengths and faults.
From what I can tell reading posts is that not a lot have actually personally heard this newer GaN-FET tech implemented into a class D audio amp design. So while the likes of AGD, Technics and Merrill might in principle sound terrific based upon this newer tech based upon the tech’s inherent theoretical advantages, they may also suck in real world implementation due to other designs flaws.
I’m not saying that they do suck and that the older MOS FET tech operating at lower switching frequencies are still king of the hill in class D land. But one ought to be careful in proclaiming one design implementation dead based upon merely theoretical considerations of a newer FET tech design.
I have not listened to the Technics SU-G30 yet. By reading the product page, it is evident that this is a fairly complex device, and that GaN transistors are a small component of the overall design. It is outwawrdly not possible to draw definite conclusions as of the relative contribution of GaN to the performance of Technics SU-G30
Worth pointing out that GaN transistors are not particularly new. Prototypes have been demonstrated as early as 1993... That is some 25 years ago. GaN-based transistors have been commercially available in one incarnation or another since 2006. See:
Nor GaN are the exclusive domain of Niche companies: major semiconductors fabs, such as Panasonic Industrial Devices, offer Gan transistors and GaN-based assemblies:
Relatively novel is only the application of Gan to high end audio amplification. If more amplifier designers adopt GaN, The next couple years will tell if transistors based on some forms of GaN inherently correlate to class D modules and circuits that contribute to enhance the audible performance of power amplifiers beyond the current state of the art. Or if the advantage afforded by the application of this semiconductor technology is purely a theoretical one. The danger of overoptimistic disconnects was nicely expressed by Mr. Berra:
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
George cannot handle the truth. It does not matter what I sell or who says what....what matters is the truth. I tell the truth.....you make up stuff about the latest class D (saying it is all crap) which you have not heard. That is the truth. I don't care if someone buys a $15000 amp. My amps are in a completely different price point. Someone who can afford a $15000 sexy amp would not even look at my amps. I am semi retired. I don't need any advertising. My amps will speak for themselves. However, I know what I hear and what I hear is that the best of todays class D mosfet 500K switching amps are dang good. This is from listening. What do you know about the latest mosfet class D amps? Nothing..
Bye the way, manufacturers and dealers are all over these threads. Totally allowed as long as they don't get out of hand. Notice the info from the Nord guy here....nothing wrong with it. Your problem with me is not that I am a manufacturer......but that I believe and say something different from you and since you like to be right you use any defense you can to make my statements look biased. The only truth in audio is what you hear. And you have not listened to any of the latest mosfet amps.....so you speak no truth about them. You are just making stuff up! There are reviews and posts all over the net by people having their mind blown with these latest mosfet class D amps. But if you refuse to believe others who listen, I feel sorry for you.
I am not saying the latest 500K mosfet class D amps are state of the art and will never get better or that GaNs or whatever in the future might not better the sound. What I am saying is that we have great sound now.....but you must find it. Every single amp sounds different. Every single manufacturer has different capabilities. Seek out the best in your price point. You will be happy, when you do.
My business model is one of self service. The "self" is everyone. For there is only love, God and self. So, if someone makes an amp for the same money or less than me and most people feel it is a better amp then I will stop selling my amp. Because I treat everyone as myself (because they are....we are one). I want to have the best thing for the money and I want the same for everyone else. What I sell is service. The more you bless, love and serve everyone then the most happiness is created. Let there be light! Please, tell the truth. The truth in audio is what you hear. If you have beliefs based on non experience then they may or may not be true. What you hear is always true.
But right now we have 600 watt a channel mosfet class D dual mono amps that sound great for a mere $2000 (yours truly coming very soon).
Now that's an ad to promote ones own goods, and the rest of the post trying to put others off getting or waiting for Class-D with GaN technology, and to purchase their's instead. Isn't that called shilling/canvassing or is there another word for it?
You should read the entire post he put up. He clearly says he is not telling anything until all the testing is done. Right now there are only three manufacturers of GAN amps....so we know two of them are probably in the mix. We will all have to wait till he posts more info.
What will be really interesting is how a few of the latest mosfet amps compare with the brand new GAN amps. There are very few who have even listened to the latest class D amps.....let alone 4 different brands together and even more coming in to test. The findings should help everyone in different price ranges. I said earlier.....class D is all over the place....just like all classes. Whether using mosfets or GANs......all amps will sound different....for everything you do makes for different sound.
There are mosfet based class D amps that are marvelous.......even though George says they are all crap. He has not heard the latest mosfet amps. Those of use that have heard the best of the latest mosfet amps know that Class D has already arrived. If GANs can take it higher....then that is good. But right now you need at least $15,000 to get a basic GAN amp (except for the 50 watt a channel Technics integrated).
In a few years when GAN amps are available real cheap then these $15,000 plus amps will be boat anchors. There is no reason that a GAN amp has to be much more expensive than a mosfet amp. The difference in price between the devices is actually very small. The only reason Merrill and AGD are charging what they do......is because they can. You could take the circuitry in the AGD amps and put it in a basic black box (no tube nonsense and plexiglass with glowing LEDs inside) and sell it direct for maybe $5-6K for the pair. Once IcePower or Pascal or UCD or ? make modules with them then the prices of stereo amps will start at $1000. But right now we have 600 watt a channel mosfet class D dual mono amps that sound great for a mere $2000 (yours truly coming very soon).
worldwidewholesales Yes we are currently testing 2 Class D amps with the GaN technology.
Hi, I'm very interested, which ones are these GaN models you are testing? Where do you post up the test results, graphs? Or is this subjective listening to them?
Hello jonasandezekiel, I am not surprised that you are not blown away by Wyred4Sound ICEpowered amps..... I have not heard yet Wyred4Sound amps that I have liked.... To be honest, I have not heard them for a few years, but what I have heard at RMAF until a few years ago sounded rather hard in the treble.
If you can tell us your budget and power requirements, several of us can make some concrete suggestions based on models that we have experienced, and/or brands that we have learned to appreciate.
Hi Mapman, Yes we are
currently testing 2 Class D amps with the GaN technology. We are being very careful with our testing and all amplifiers are going into 5 different systems, so right now we are just keeping our findings to our selves until the testing is done. I will say it was easy to eliminate the bad sounding Class D amplifiers very quickly. None of the amplifiers with GaN technology
have been eliminated. Prices vary.
I’m now using wyred 4 sound mono blocks, and they’re just okay. They don’t add anything untoward, but don’t have much in the way of punch or bass kick I like to hear.
These are Ice powered Class-D’s also, you stated below they were bright also, what speakers do you own, maybe that new GaN Technics SU-G30 could be good with them?
Anyone with opinions on Wyred4sound’s monoblocks? I recently bought three, and they sound bright without much bass. Anyone?
Here is the Technics SU-G30 review.
The musical reproduction offered by the Technics SU-G30 was among the best sound of any amplifier I have ever reviewed. Technics has a short preamble in the manual that hypes the great sound of this amplifier and I agree with their marketing-driven assessment. It is ironic that the better digital gets, the closer it sounds to analog. Tubelike even. And at some point, digital can have the best qualities of digital and analog at the same time. This is how I view the audio prowess of the Technics SU-G30 – it is like analog, super clean analog at that.
My generalized listening impressions involved excellent purity of tone, a huge soundstage, amazing detail retrieval along with surprising excellence on streaming services.
I fell in love with class d when I bought (go easy on me) the Pioneer elite sc-09tx uber-receiver, some years ago. The bass and mids were absolutely intoxicating and to die for, while the highs were grating and painful. All coming from a pitch black background, no noise. It was definitely a good news, bad news sort of thing, but when it was good, it was REALLY good.
It became like a drug addiction, I desperately searched for something that reproduced that fantastic mid range and powerful bass and that dead silence, without the harsh treble it was known for.
I’m now using wyred 4 sound mono blocks, and they’re just okay. They don’t add anything untoward, but don’t have much in the way of punch or bass kick I like to hear. They're just not exciting, like the Pioneer. I’m now looking for a replacement for my amps....much like the OP.
Yes I have 3 Class D amps ranging in original retail price from $100 to $6000 and I can say with certainty each sounds good but different.
I’d specifically be wondering are you testing any Class D amps with the GaN technology? If so how does that compare to the others? Also the cost of each.
We are still doing our direct A/B testing with several
different Class D amplifier brands that use different technology and I am
certainly not a tech but the differences in sound between the different
technologies is very audible. There are 4 amplifier manufactures that we have
A/B that sound much better than other Class D manufactures we have tested. We are still
testing and we still have a few more amplifiers to test but one thing for sure,
Class D amplification comes in many different levels and the top level is very
special. The problem might be, if you have not heard the very best of Class D,
than the not so good Class D is not very good at all and this might turn you
right off Class D.
Any good credible reviews out there yet where the author compared the sound of a leading GaN Class D amp to others? Stereophile? That would help take the GaN argument from a theoretical one to something verified. The measurements would be interesting as well.
It’s my understanding that there are currently 2 leading producers of high-speed GaN power transistors, EPC and GaN Systems. Does anyone know if there are differences between the two of them and whether GaN Systems has a proprietary patent on their GaN FET transistor, too?
Are there other producers of currently available GaN transistors with unique patents?
Are there other producers of currently available high-speed GaN FET drivers besides Peregrine and their PE29102 driver?
I’m just trying to better understand the companies and products involved in these emerging markets.
The very latest Nord Acoustic class D with REV D buffer boards and the choice of op amps depending on your favoured sound are a bargain. They sound absolutely amazing you can not go wrong, it will be years before the GaN class D audio IP technology truly becomes affordable.
It will be several years before this GaN class D audio amplifier IP technology becomes truly affordable.
I don’t believe so, EPC have already sold these to several Class-D manufacturers direct, and Digikey are already selling it, it doesn’t take much, just demand for a major semiconductor manufacturer to step in and purchase the right to make them for the masses, it’s like the Power Mosfet all over again, which they developed, and became the norm in no time at all.
It will be several years before this GaN class D audio amplifier IP technology becomes truly affordable. Several key patents have over a decade of life left on them. More competitors with GaN-based products entering the marketplace will be the best way to drive prices down.
Hi Singingtheblues, I have listened to Devialet several times at RMAF, including I believe the 250.... I am not surprised that eventually you found it to be grating.... The overall house sound is certainly open, but a little too treble-happy for my taste... Some small amounts of treble hardness may have been traces of intermodulation.
How long is it likely to be before GaN is in mid priced gear?
That Technics SU-G30 which is a server as well as an integrated is the cheapest so far at $3900, but it's only 50w into 8ohm and 100 into 4ohm so not for everyone. So if that was a poweramp only, you would have to say high 2's. As I said I did contact EPC to find what and who are bringing them out, seems there are several more brands on top of what we now know.
I hope their use continues to trickle down to even more affordable amps as George predicted (good call). It seems they rather quickly went from only being used in the $50K Technics to these new AGD monos at $15K/pair. Still too steep for me but I can wait..
Yes EPC (who are the GaN developers) are looking for it to be used also in portable devices, if so that will cause a quite a
kerfuffle also.
So, it sounds to me like you were right on the money about how these new GaN transistors ability to positively affect the sound quality of class D amps. The reviewer stated these amps "sound like a SET tube amp but with better dynamics and breadth". If true, that is an amp sound signature that could be revolutionary since.I believe it's the first of its kind. I've never heard of an amp described as combining SET tube sound with better dynamics and breadth. Of course, there's more than transistors that determines the sound qualities of an amp, right? Or could we be stuck thinking conventionally about a new technology that could prove to be game changing? Most of us are accustom to discussing the sound differences between amps that use FETs and Bi-Polar transistors, with a total lack of knowledge about the affects of using the new GaN transistors. All I know about these new GaN transistors is that they are significantly faster switching from on to off, and vice versa, which thus significantly reduces dead-time (the down time when a transistor is neither on nor off but in an in between idle state) that ultimately results in lower distortion. Lower distortion is always a good thing but could there be other forces at work that could result in improved performance? Currently, I have no answers to my own questions. I'm just thinking out loud and hoping you guys n gals will pitch in and help. I find this new GaN transistor technology very exciting but want to keep it in perspective. I hope their use continues to trickle down to even more affordable amps as George predicted (good call). It seems they rather quickly went from only being used in the $50K Technics to these new AGD monos at $15K/pair. Still too steep for me but I can wait..
Like I said before, when this GaN technology becomes more affordable, and looking that this latest stuff coming out it’s not too far off. Those that were negative towards all the pro’s it had to offer from owners of the current hamstrung Class-D’s, those owners will be the first ones sell their older technology ones to purchase the newer GaN Class-D’s. As they will not want to be stuck with them, as they’ll be unsellable for a reasonable price. It could be compared to when silicon transistor amps came out, the older germanium transistor amps couldn’t even be given away.
One day maybe, when the price (not looks) of the performance of the SE-R1 comes down to the the price or lower of the SU-G30.
GaN technology seems to be lit, just needs more semi conductor manufactures like Motorola, AD, Texas, ect ect. to purchase patent rights to make them from EPC (GaN) That’s how they (Lidow and co.) did it when they sold the rights to the power mosfet all those years ago, and if you remember the same scenario is going on here. Initial price of amps using them were very high then they crashed because so many manufacturers bought the rights to make them.
BTW looking at the heatsinks in the SU-G30 above, that section is the GaN amp, it may have higher than todays 600khz switching because it’s using these heatsinks, as EPC said to me if left at 600khz there is no need for any heat sinking on any of the GaN boards, so it maybe higher. Could be a great sounding little amp, I can think maybe Quad ESL57’s would be nice as they can’t take to much wattage, or any > 90db speakers
GaN technology for $4k, and this Technics SU-G30 is also a complete network integrated amplifier. Seems like it doesn’t use the 1.5mhz higher switching frequency that the $20k Technics SE-R1 uses, but does use a hybrid power supply, not all smp, and by just using the GaN technology it’s probably front of all it’s competitors anyway.
The musical reproduction offered by the Technics SU-G30 was among the best sound of any amplifier I have ever reviewed. Technics has a short preamble in the manual that hypes the great sound of this amplifier and I agree with their marketing-driven assessment. It is ironic that the better digital gets, the closer it sounds to analog. Tubelike even. And at some point, digital can have the best qualities of digital and analog at the same time. This is how I view the audio prowess of the Technics SU-G30 – it is like analog, super clean analog at that.
My generalized listening impressions involved excellent purity of tone, a huge soundstage, amazing detail retrieval along with surprising excellence on streaming services.
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