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Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?

Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””

Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas

Showing 21 responses by davev

davev
27 posts
 
Lewm,

I have a Grado MCZ5 that I forgot to mention. I had it in an Empire 298 about 10 years ago and it didn't really make my feet tap so I ignored it for all these years other than to buy a new stylus for it a couple of years ago just in case I ever wound up using it again.

I've tried it in a few different arms and the midrange stikes me as being nice and full but overall I can't get it "just right" for me so I need to play with it some more.
It seems to be more critical of mass than the other cartridges.

In a conversation with someone at Grado a couple of weeks ago I was told that the Grados like an arm mass of around 14 grams.

In the literature that came with the MCZ5 it says that the entire "Z" series tracks at 1.5 grams and that they are not sensitive to capacitive load.

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
Raul & contributors to this thread,

I've been using an expensive MC for about 8 years and it does make my AT OC9ML MK11, Denon DL103 and 103D sound kind of inferior but it's not worlds a part from my FR1 MK11 MC.

I've heard this MC sound any number of different ways depending on the arm and headshell it's in and so much for the manufacturers recommended 2 gram VTF. I just discovered that 1.75 grams is the magic VTF in my current setup.

Prior to that, the loading drove me nuts and I settled on 571 ohms. The manufacturer does not recommend a loading as he believes it's system dependent and I go along with that but knowing that it's not a "typical" MC that likes to see between 5 and 100 ohms helped.

It was "work" but the end result is an excellent tracking very neutral and well integrated presentation that the cartridge is known for and that works for me BUT---

A couple of weeks ago someone on the Vinyl Audio Asylum brought up the issue of MM versus MC and provided a link to this thread.
I had seen this thread before and I knew I had some MM's that I thought were "special" but I never devoted the time to see what they can really do compared to the MC I've been using for so long.

I finally took the time and tried some better old MM's in different arms and on different tables in some cases.
My Empire 4000/D111 sounded just OK in my Empire 598 BUT in an SME 3009 S2 improved arm mounted on a Thorens TD125 it came to life. PRAT plus detail up the kazoo with bass as good as the MC on a TD124 MK1. That made me wonder why people think idler drives are so superior to belt drives for PRAT and bass because so far my TD125 MK1 and 11 aren't that different from my TD124 MK1's and 11's.
I haven't gone to low capacity cables and a 100K load for the 4000D/111 but I do plan on trying that.

Then I tried a Shure V15 type 111 in the Empire 598 and it sounded just OK. Changing the stylus to an aftermarket one that may be an old Astatic generic with a Shibata stylus made a world of difference for the better so now I need to try a Jico SAS stylus.
The belt drive Empire 598 is lighter on the bass than the TD 124's and TD125's but not by that much.

I tried my Grace F9L and that sounded pretty darn good too but I haven't played with it much yet to see what arm/headshell it likes.

The problem now is that I like the MC I've been using, the Empire,Shure and the FR1 because they all do things right for me in my system. So I guess I'll be a multiple table listener and use the setup that suits my mood at the time.

The morals of the story are that it does seem that you don't need an MC cartridge to be in vinyl heaven and that arm/cartridge matching is VERY important and probably largely overlooked as being very important.
I found that althought a cartridge/arm combo may pass the tests on the HiFi News test LP it doesn't mean the cartridge will sound it's best in that arm/headshell.

I bought the OC9ML and both versions of the Denon 103 due to the "flavor of the month or year on the Audio Asylum but they just don't float my boat after hearing other cartridges.
My old Ortofon SPU leaves them in the dust and that's yet another sound that I can get into because it's so big and full with substantial detail for a .17 dia stylus tip.

Now the new Ortofon MM's are the flavor of the month but are they better sounding than some 15-20 year old MM's?
I don't plan on spending $400-$500 to find out but the advantage is that new styli should be readily available for some years to come or you can stock up now.
A NOS Empire D/111 stylus isn't cheap and a Grace F9L stylus sold on E-Bay for big bucks.

I also tried a NOS Ortofon 540 MM but it didn't do it for me as my first one had in another table with different speakers in another house some 15 years ago. I can only conclude that a table/arm change and/or speaker change plus perhaps a sonic taste change are in play.

The other thing I find interesting is that there's so much talk about using a mono catridge for mono LP's. My personal experience is that I like the sound of mono LP's played with a stereo cartridge NOT using the mono switch on the preamp. When I do that it seems to kill the "presence" or the 3D sound in lots of well done old mono's.

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
Raul,

Now that I've taken the time to seriously try some old cartridges I know they will be used.

My better MC, a Miyabi, pleases me by being a very neutral sounding device not favoring anything and being an excellent tracker but when I hear the Empire 4000 I have to say wow because it sure does get your attention by sounding more bold and snappy in it's presentation.

If I had to pick just one out of those two I don't know which one it would be because I like both very much.

Then when I use the old Ortofon SPU it seems to have a bloated upper bass and midrange that I like too and there's enough HF detail presented to hold my interest so for now I guess I'll keep alternating and see what gets more use.
I still need to experiment more with the Grado MCZ and Grace F9L and I haven't gotten to the NOS ADC XLM Mk11 yet.

It does get confusing when you have so many cartridges and the better MM's can sound very similar overall.

I guess I just wanted to add my two cents to the thread that I would have to agree that MC's aren't the last word and in fact may not be the beast way to go for many people because the loading issue is yet another complication. Buyer beware because the "quest" for the right loading and the right SUT may drive you nuts and cost you lots of money yet the end result may not be as good sounding to you as an MM might sound.

Where does the hobby stop and listening enjoyment start? Are we ever happy?

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
Sanlanman,
I was frustrated for years because I couldn't find a cartridge/arm/table combo that made the majority of my large LP collection sound engaging enough to me so I could enjoy the performance/artistry instead of listening to things I didn't like about the setup I had at the time.

Then after going the $$$$ route of a new high end table/arm I found out that all that money for a table/arm didn't automatically make for listening enjoyment so I bought more vintage turntables that turned out to be a very good investment if anything.

Now that I'm forvever settled on electronics and speakers I was looking for that finishing touch of the right vinyl front end or maybe 2 or 3 setups that floated my boat in different ways.

After reading pretty much this entire thread and having used MC's for some years I decided to seriously audition some of the many old MM's I already have because MC's I tried weren't vinyl heaven but one comes close. (Miyabi)
In playing with my Empire 4000 D/111 and ADC XLM MK11 I heard things I liked but no full monte.

Reasoning that these two cartridges would be happier in a lower mass arm than my SME 3009 S2 Improved, I pulled out my Thorens TD147 that served me so well back in the 90's.
Much to my amazement the Empire 4000 D/111 in that table seems to be the full monte for me but time will tell.
The ADC in that table sounds good too and adding 1/2 gram weight to the headshell, then rebalancing, made it sound even better. (smoother)

The Empire is far more dynamic if not bold in it's midrange presentation yet well balanced enough to sound smooth enough and so far it's doing everything I want, even letting me hear things I've never heard before on some LP's.

The setup has tons of PRAT so, so much for the idler drive fad as them being the only thing responsible for PRAT because the lowly belt drive TD147 is sounding pretty darn good to me like it did years ago so why did I "upgrade"?

If I hadn't have heard the Empire in that table I'd probably be happy with the ADC XLM MK11 Improved.

There's little doubt in my mind that there are some old MM/MI cartridges that are clearly worth while but we all don't like the same kind of sound and we all don't have the same equipment so it's trial and error just like with MC's BUT the old MM route is generally less expensive because most people still put a higher value on MC's, new and used.

IMHO, total system synergy to your personal sonic taste needs to take place so there are many things besides a cartridge to deal with although they are a "voicing tool." Back before cables, caps, tubes and 40 pound plinths for idler drives became a $$$$$ business, the simple and cheap way to change the sound was to buy a new cartridge so it's not an incorrect approach, maybe just not a complete one unless the associated equipment is right for you too.

Back in the day when the Grace F9E was all the rage I got one and hated it so it went back for an Ortofon 540 that pleased me at the time with the equipment/speakers I at that time.

If your speakers or RIAA comp has a dip or peak at 3KHZ then a peak or dip at 3KHZ is a plus in a cartridge so it's all a crap shoot to some degree but the better MM's do seem to stand out more.

I see your in SC too. If your ever in the Aiken area your welcome to come by to hear what I like but time will tell if the TD147/Empire is what will continue to make me happy.

I did change the phono 2 input on my preamp from 47K to 100K for the Empire because it was designed to work into a 100K decoder (quad) and that opened the sound up for sure.

This is just my experience so maybe there's some food for thought for you here?
davev
27 posts
 
Siniy: Thanks for the information. Maybe I need to go up in arm/headshell mass and not down. I didn't try the M20FL in my SME 3012 but I will now.

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
Speaking of the M20FL--- I also bought a NOS one from Germany because of the rave reviews here and the relative low cost.
So far I've only tried it in my SME 3009 S2 Improved arm and I'm beginning to think that it might do better in a lower mass arm.
With the standard SME counterweight for that arm, the weight has to be all the way to the pivot point to counterbalance and I can't say that the sound was all that great.
Adding a 1.7 gram weight to the headshell enabled the counterweight to be moved out some but I still have what I'd call "muddy bass."
The setup passes all of the tracking bands on the HiFi News test LP at a VTF of 1.5 grams and it also tracks a warped LP I have that some other combos won't track. The resonance on both bands is between 8 and 10 HZ but there has to be more going on here.
I've never run into this kind of problem with a MM cartridge before where the bass is bad but all else is good.
The mids and highs remind me of my Ortofon SPU in that there is a sense of smooth naturalness there but the bass is just too flabby and muddy to be an asset.
I've tried different VTA's but that didn't help the bass.
I have an SME 3009 with metal bearings and a non detachable headshell that should be 3 grams lower in mass than the S2 Improved but it needs 4 new cartridge clips to be installed on the wires and the arm needs to be mounted to a table.
So I was wondering if anyone using an M20FL could give me some insight as to the tonearm/headshell mass it seems to do best in.
davev
27 posts
 
Raul and others,
I put the M20FL into a heavier headshell and then back into my SME 3009 with a heavier counterweight to get an arm balance.
The bass was better but the setup seemed a bit excessive for the 3009 and I thought the sound should be better.
I then put the M20FL back into a light weight SME headshell along with a two gram weight and mounted that in my SME3012 Arm. Better yet. Now the low notes of a concert grand piano have that growl you want to hear and overall there is a nice tonal balance and no frequency range sounds favored or exaggerated.
Playing the resonance bands of the HiFi News test LP revealed a slightly higher resonance frequency, more around 10HZ, and it passed all three tracking bands at 1.5 grams VTF. The new setup in the 3012 played my "test" warped LP better too.
So it's looks like I finally found a cartridge that sounds good to me in the 3012. It's been sitting idle for a long time.
I may need to buy a headshell in the ten gram range to really tweak this cartridge in.
There's only about 20 minutes of play on the cartridge so maybe it will get even better sounding?
It makes me wonder if the M20FL is what all those people buying "tricked out" Denon DL103's are after?

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
Dgob: I have a DL103 and a DL103D. I gave up on the D103 because I could never get it to sound good enough for me to listen to and all that modding and hand selecting can cost more than a new cartridge so why even bother trying to make a silk purse out of an pigs ear?
The 103D is considerably better and lots more listenable, but to me it just lacks "a draw" to make me want to listen to it.
Harry W. at VPI told me that it's a match made in heaven with the shorter JMW Arm but I didn't have the two of them at the same time to try that out.
My old Ortofon SPU/GT blows them both out of the water in terms of musicality and sheer listening pleasure but only after it was taken out of my old Ortofon arm and mounted in an FR64 arm so I grant you that the "cartridge arm combo" is important.
I have enough cartridges and I need to get off of the cartridge-go-round and concentrate on what I deem the better combos I already have.
If there is another cartridge in my future it will be another old SPU because I do find that they have many qualities I like rolled into one cartridge but most importantly, a natural or life-like sound with exceptional midrange and tame yet all there treble.
Now I understand why the Japanese have been buying them up all these years.
The M20FL has some of those SPU qualities but after some play time and it already sounding better, I'm hearing what I'd call a "zip factor" like going from 0 to 60MPH in 4 seconds that is kind of annoying but it's still under 2 hours of use and I haven't tried to fine tune the setup yet.

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
A new thought to the discussion?
Does anyone else with multiple trial and error generated setups with that final tweaking for the best sound find that they all sound pretty much the same but one still does something a little better or a little worse?
I don't yet have a way to be able to switch in my five different turntable setups in seconds but when I do switch setups that I have tuned to my liking, I find that I can live with any one of them if I had to because they are all so similar in sound.
So in my case I know I'm rejecting anything that doesn't float my sonic boat in my room with my system and I'm ending up with very similar favorites.
It's been fun doing this but finding the stopping point has been elusive.
davev
27 posts
 
Dgob response and more on M20FL:
I agree with a breakin for catridges because of their semi-mechanical nature but if a cartridge isn't even in the ball park of what I like to hear after trying this and that, the only other break in I'm willing to offer it is with a hammer.
I just don't believe in suffering with bad sound hour after hour waiting for an improvement in anything that would be a miracle if it did happen because the sound would have to change that much to satisfy me.
With the M20FL I heard things I liked so I kept going and asked here about what arms it seemed to work well in. After hearing that it does well in a Technics 1200 I knew I was going in the wrong direction with mass and more mass did the trick.
I listened more tonight and the "zippyness" I mentioned was far less apparent and like I had said, I needed to use it more and tweak it in if necessary.
I can now say that even with less than 4 hours use it's an outstanding catridge in the right headshell/arm.
Besides sounding fine with most LP's I tried, it played two that lots of cartridges I've tried can't seem to get right.
Paul Simons "Kodachrome" band on Columbia KC32280: the bass was pounding, the vocal didn't scream to make your ears bleed and the piano runs stood out in a solid fashion.
Joan Sutherland The Art of the Prima Donna vol 2 London OS 25233: Her voice was clear and crisp without being shrill yet I could hear the space ambience and the orchestra sounded full and real.
Not bad for $189 for sure.

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
Lewn,

I'm confused about the effective mass issue too.
The info in the below link says that the 3012 has an effective mass of 14 grams but I don't think that includes the headshell.
There's also a chart showing expected resonace with different complinace and total effective masses.
Obviously the "key" to unlock the mystery is the actual effective mass of the arm with headshell and cartridge and it must also make a difference as to where the counterweight is set at the rear of the arm or how far out from the pivot point it is.
Then Ortofon said the compliance is 20 but is it?
I just weighed the headshell containing the M20FL and the added weight I put in and it's 13.30 grams total.
As a result of the not that heavy headshell weight for the 3012, the two weights on the rear of the arm are moved in toward the pivot.
I was going to add more weight to the headshell to see what happens but it's sounding so good I may not even bother.
Another consideration might be that my 3012 doesn't have the heavy counterweight to balance something like an SPU and I'm only using one "rider weight" or VTF weight rather than the two when using a heavier headshell.

http://www.analogue-classics.com/html/sme_3009___3012.html

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
The 1.5 grams VTF is what the E-Bay seller of NOS M20FL Supers claims but there is no Ortofon paperwork with the cartridges.
The Cartridge Database on the Vinyl Engine also says 1.5 grams VTF.
If anyone has the original paperwork for an M20FL Super it would be interesting to see what it says.
davev
27 posts
 
Montepilot: I have one turntable that sometimes receives a radio station in the evenings. It's a Thorens TD147 and I have an Empire 4000 D/111 cartridge mounted in the arm. The cartridge hangs out pretty much in the open away from the headshell so I'd guess that it could pick up RFI. BUT I think the problem may have started when I changed the interconnect cables that are soldered to a board under the table. Because the problem isn't severe or all the time,I never tried to troubleshoot it. But I'm wondering if it's a lack of shielding in the interconnects or cartridge that allows RFI to enter, but not hum because it's not a ground problem that woukld do so.
davev
27 posts
 
My Empire 1000 cartridge label reads 1000 ZE without the X. The stylus assembly is black and reads EMPIRE with the little round logo under it. The cantilever is rather broad with no real noticable taper to the eye. Compared to the cantilever in my Empire 4000 D/111, it looks large and clunky but it is very similar to the cantilever in my Empire 999VE with the older style tapered stylus assembly like on the 800 series. The cantilever on my later Empire 999VE/X with the stylus assembly like that of my Empire 1000 ZE is thinner and shorter. I have the original manual for the 999VE and the stylus replacement is S 999VE ERD Purple. NO X. Maybe Empire changed the cantilevers in later versions of a same model and added the X to designate that? Just tossing that out for some thought.

I found a copy of High Fidelity's 1974 test reports and the 1000 ZE/X was tested and reviewed. The interesting parts are: The Empires response cure looks far more like that of an amplifier than that of a "speaker." Speaker must be a typo because it goes on to say: It is flat within a couple of db over most of the audible range, even at the extremes it deviates by only 3db from the 1KHZ rsponse level. The curves shown here, incidentially, were made with a 300pf input capacitance, shunted by the normal 47,000 resistor. Those who read our report on the V15 Type 11 Improved will remember that a similar capacitance was required before that cartridge would perform up to it's full potential. Without the capacitance the 1000 ZE/X exhibited some 20KHZ resonance and a slight dip in response below that resonance and consequently fell a bit short of meeting it's response specifications. Compliance spec'ed at 35 lateral and 25 vertical. The stylus tip is listed as an elliptical 0.2 X 0.7 mil but in the lab it measured 0.3 X 0.7 mils. To track the most demanding CBS test cuts the VTF needed was 1 gram in the SME arm. ( no SME model mentioned) In home listening we finally settled on 0.75 gram using the arm on a Lenco L-75. Vertical angle measured by CBS Labs was 20 degrees. The listening test resulted in a "superb."

I can agree with the 300 pf or somewhat higher capacitance for the V-15 type ll because when I got mine new it sounded honky or nasal to me. I now remember finding the above report and reading it. I soldered 100pf caps across the preamp inputs and that nasal quality went away.

While I'm here and typing, I also found an original manual for the Ortofon M15 Super. Wasn't there some conjecture that maybe it's the same body as the M20FL and VMS20? The pic on the front looks like the M20FL except for the model designation on the stylus assembly. It was available in an elliptical or spherical. It's interest that the spes for both are the same except for the stylus tip size.
Cartridge weight 5 grams, output at 1KHZ per cm/s 0.8 mv + -
1db, internal impedance 750 mh, recommended load impedance per channel 47Kohm, tracking angle 15 degrees, frequency response 20HZ to 20KHZ, frequency response + - 1db 20HZ to 10KHZ, channel separation at 1KHZ 25db, channel balance 2db, compliance horizontal 50 x 10-6, vertical 30X 10-6, trackability at 300HZ 1 gram tracking 80um, FIM distortion at 1 gram tracking < 1%, trackling force range 0.75 to 1.5 gram, recommended tracking force 1 gram, stylus tip radius elliptical 18/8 um, spherical 15 um. Replacement sylus D15E Super, D15 Super.
davev
27 posts
 
Raul: I'm happy that the old Hi Fi Magazine test report I posted was of some value.
In my recollection and experience, back in the 60's and 70's there wasn't a consumer knowledge or concern about input resistance and capacitance for MM's until CD4 cartridges came along and the 100K came into play with a low capacitance but how many dealers actually told their cartridge customers?
My experience with a new at the time Shure V15 Type ll was the first time I even thought about things like that and that was by pure chance in reading the review I posted.
The Shure V15 Type ll manual doesn't mention that you should have 300-400 input pf but the added pf made a BIG difference for me in listening enjoyment!
Seems to me that the HIFI test report of the 1000ZE/X was probably done with a mind set that the 47K was a fixed standard and the capacitance was easier to change if need be so they didn't even play with the input resistance.
I may be wrong but aren't the two related in a way that makes the combination act as an equalizer of sorts, bending the response curve depending on the combination of capacitance and resistance? If this is correct then an MM/MI is more difficult to get just right than an MC because MC's aren't that sensitive to the capacitance.
I came across something else that may be interesting to you and others reading or participating in this thread. I haven't yet read it all but what I have read looks like the subject of MM/MI "loading" has been inconclusive for a long time. http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-06-01-7710b.pdf
I also find it interesting that a British reviewer didn't care for the Shure V15 Type lll because to me it's one of the better sounding MM cartrides of that time period.
So far my experience with the 1000 ZE version, without the "X," is that it sounds exremely clean, smooth and open while not having a harsh high end BUT there is a lack of bass when used with the same preamp settings I use with other cartridges. I put a NOS 999VEX stylus into the 1000 body and there was more bass but nowhere near as much as with my Ortofon M20FL or Empire 4000 D/lll with NOS stylus. Because the 4000 D/lll sounds so good I hesitate to spend $166 for a NOS 1000ZE stylus and by the way it's advertised on the Internet it's hard to say if it's the ZE or ZEX version.
I was looking for a "different" sound to round out my collection of turntable setups and the M20FL fit the open slot nicely for me so I may just try the D20E stylus.
davev
27 posts
 
NOW CONFUSED: The HiFi Mag test report says they tried the Empire 1000ZE/X in an SME arm and the arm of a Lenco L-75 to see what VTF was needed but they didn't say what arm it was in when they called the performance "Superb."
An SME 3009 S2 Improved is 9-10 grams effective mass, the non detachable headshell verison is 7 grams effective mass and in the Boston Audio Society literature they claim the Lenco L-75 arm is 23 grams effective mass.
Raul, what if the approximate effective mass of the arm/headshell combo you are using with your 1000ZEX that sounds so good to you?
I wonder if that's my bass problem? I just took for granted that the compliance was too high for a higher mass arm than an SME 3009 S2 Improved.
I try adding 1.6 grams to the headshell, rebalanced and I didn't hear any difference but maybe that wasn't enough?

Dave
davev
27 posts
 
Opps. I see that Timeltel posted the link to the Boston Audio Society literature on 1-24. That must be where I got it!
Not getting any younger here and the brain farts certainly verify that. LOL
davev
27 posts
 
Axelwahl: I'm not surprised with your finding on the Shure V15 Type lll.
Before the renewed interest in vinyl, not all that many years ago, I bought a Fidelity Research cartridge carrier from E-Bay for $50 that contained 5 cartridges mounted in headshells and one of them was a Shure V15 Type lll.
I already knew that the V15 Type ll with 300-400pf capacitance loading and 47K input resistance sounded OK but it really wasn't anything to write home about.
I tried the Type lll in an SME 3009 S2 Improved arm and it was OK but again, nothing to write haome about so I put it back into the cartridge carrier.
Then one day I decided to try it in my Empire 598 table with the original 980 arm. Shocked is an understatement.
It really does sound quite good and at that point I wondered why I was still farting around buying and trying other vintage cartridges but I guess that's part of the "mental illness" some of us have. LOL
It has the original Shure HE stylus in it and it looks good under 200X magnification.
I figure the Empire arm wire and original interconnect plus the input of the preamp must total at least 300pf and I have it plugged into a 47K phono input.
I will probably eventually try the Jico stylus for it just to see how that compares to the original but it sounds quite amazing the way it is.
davev
27 posts
 
Siniy123: In case you haven't noticed, the cartridges mentioned here are going for more on E-Bay and that probably means that more people are reading this thread than are posting.
But what else is new? That's the story of supply and demand like when nobody wanted a Thorens TD124 or Garrard 301 and they were selling for $50 in 1990.
Kind of makes one reluctant to post a new find and have others agree until your already well supplied with bodies and replacement styli.
Maybe we should go underground and have this thread rave about the wonders of ceramic cartridges to throw everybody else off. LOL
davev
27 posts
 
I just wanted to report on my new Garage-A-Records Empire 1000 ZE/X replacement stylus.
My Empire Cartridge is a 1000ZE with no X on the label. The new stylus from Garage-A-Records has a thinner cantilever but the length seems the same as the stylus that was in my ZE cartridge.
I had reported that my ZE cartridge didn't seem to have any bass compared to other MM/MI cartridges I own but even right out of the box the new stylus provided the missing bass and it sounds pretty darn good.
So I can only conclude that the old stylus is probably shot in the suspension because the tip looks OK to me under 200X.
My first reaction was that the new stylus seems to be hotter in the upper mids but it's hard to say because if the old stylus is shot,it wouldn't be a fair comparison.

I do think the 1000ZE or ZE/X is a good MM and well worth a new stylus but I can't honestly say that I think it beats my Ortofon M20FL, Ortofon SPU, Shure V15 Type 111,Empire 4000 D/111 or Cello Miyabi MC.

I would just say that these are all fine sounding cartridges to me and that they all exhibit different presentations in one way or another and that they are all acceptable to me.
If I was forced to pick just one that I could use, I would have to listen to each one for hours with different types of music and have a check list in front of me to record my thoughts then see which one gets the most points and where.
davev
27 posts
 
Raul and others,

I got my Empire 4000D/111 sometime around 1990 and it came in a turntable that I bought.

The stylus guard is attached to the cartridge body via a brass hinge assembly and there are there are dark spots on each side of the stylus assembly that appear to be round brass hinge pins.
EMPIRE is in very small letters on the flat plastic piece of the stylus guard. The top of the lettering is white and there is a gold background so that EMPIRE is in a gold colored rectangle. Under EMPIRE there is the round logo seen on old original Empire stylus assemblies like that of my Empire 1000 stylus assembly.

Sometime prior to 1998 I tried the 4000 and I thought it had potential so I looked for a replacement stylus assembly before they were no longer available and I stumbled across Ed Saunders who said he had an original 4000D/111 stylus for something like $27 and I bought it.

This was before analog and LP's were catching on again so strongly so prices were still reasonable. When I asked Ed a few years later about another stylus it was $87 and I said forget it. But now that's a deal.

The stylus I received looks like the one that the Bluz Bros is selling. The "R" in EMPIRE is reversed and it runs into the E plus there is the verticsl line under EMPIRE.

As far as color goes I'd have to say that both are snow white.
More to discover