Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges. The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs. Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft. All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm. Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for. These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones. I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers. I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
Cleeds, I meant raising the back of the arm. Some cartridges seem fine when the bottom of the tonearm arm is parallel to the record when playing, others down in the back and some with back of the tonearm arm raised in relation to the record when playing. You just adjust up or down from parallel till you think it sounds balanced or right to you. The Empire 1000ZE/X had a widget that you could put between the cartridge and headshell, same affect as raising the tonearm. Or it would angle the nose of the cartridge down some.
Im not very technical, so positive VTA may be wrong way to explain it. What is the correct term of raising or lowering the tonearm from parallel? Rake angle?
I also found the Empires worked out better with positive VTA ...
It isn't clear what you mean here. By definition, VTA is always positive. Shure states: "vertical tracking angle is equal to the angle of
the stylus inclination defined as the angle between the record surface
and a line passing through the stylus tip and the stylus pivot (Figure
1b)."
I also found the Empires worked out better with positive VTA, and careful fine tuning as you would any high quality cartridge. I don’t believe the Empire models are real picky about the tonearm type or mass. As long as it’s a high quality tonearm that isn’t very high mass you should hear the potential.
I’ve owned the Acutex LPM 415 and 420 they were bargains at the time they were available, now hard to find and more expensive. I remember them having a very impressive bass response, clean and clear, and nicely detailed.
halcro, thanks for the tip. I no longer have any trust at all in this outfit. When I talked to this guy, I asked, whats up with the blue dot on some of the “original stylus” cantilever? He said, I did that, um okay... never seen a “genuine original” stylus with blue dots on them. Only aftermarket stylus have these marks in my limited experience.
Also, all the NOS stylus I bought (other than the two I bought from BB) came in a nice fancy factory holder and box with a manual, not a flat plastic holder with generic looking description. Though maybe their supplier is the dishonest ones and shipping these as original.
Lewm, which 400 series Acutex do you have? Would be very interested in your thoughts about it in comparison to the 320 models that you have. Thank you! In answer to your question, I have found my Acutex 420 STR to work very well on my ET2. My Empire 4000 III performs very well and deserves the accolades that it receives, but in the context of my system’s tuning I find it to be too soft sounding. Positive VTA helps a great deal.
Travbrow, sounds like Empire followed the Acutex program. The Acutex 300 series are induced magnet types (with titanium cantilevers and nude exotic styli); Whereas the later 400 series are MM. I’m still very fond of the 320 models; I own both an LPM and the earlier M type. I own a 400 series too; it’s not in the same league with the 300s.
I have an NOS 1000ZE/X and a 4000D/III as well. Guess I should give them a listen.
I would like it if folks would say what tonearms work well for them with these cartridges. Headshell makes a difference too.
I guess I may be boring you all with all this Empire talk, but just one more bit of information on the 2000T 2000X and 2000Z models. These were moving iron models as opposed to most all othe Empire models are moving magnet. Supposedly the 2000Z had one of the lowest tip mass specs compared to other brands, and ultra flat frequency response.
Okay, thanks for explaining the difference. The stylus that came with 1000ZE/X is clear. The Bluz Bros stylus Empire is claimed to be nude but I guess it’s a lie. It’s going back for refund so no lose but shipping..
Some Empires are black over clear, as is my Empire 4000DIII. Nothing inferior about it regarding sound quality in my experience. It’s still nude mounted into the cantilever.
If it's nude then it's fine. But Bonded vs Nude is a huge difference.
Nude styli, shaped from whole diamonds, are more costly than bonded styli.
Some vintage styli needs cleaning, but Nude Diamond is clear after cleaning. I have cleaned the "Vital" Contact Line nude diamond myself and when i took this picture i was shocked how beautiful this diamond looks under my macro lens. Amazing! Fidelity-Research PMC-3 cartridge BTW.
Bonded is not clear, because
a diamond tip is glued on a metal shank that is itself glued into the hole of the cantilever.
Hi Raul, the 2000Z was a top of the line model and highly regarded back in day. Some claim the best model ever offered from Empire. I like the idea of affordable stylus still available. The bodies are pretty hard to find though, they use a mini shank type stylus that is unique to only a couple models. I think the 2000T and 2000X were the lower end models of that series that can use the same stylus. The 2000E/III was okay but nothing special from what I understand.
Hi Raul, I am going to return the stylus and just use the original. I just bought an Empire 2000z and ordered an original stylus for it from Thakker. I’m pretty sure they are actually original..I hope. The price was fair if it’s the real thing, much cheaper than the 4000d stylus or edr.9. So any new stylus for the 1000ZE/x is on hold for now.
Dear @travbrow : I think was me the first with a problem with Adelcom when I ordered a D3 replacement, after that and the refund I posted the warning in this thread.
Halcro just confirmed the problem with that replacement stylus source. Not trusty and I mean not trusty at all because if I remember some one bougth something from Adelcom and was ok but rigth now and after so many years on the vinatge MM cartridges is almost impossible to find out NOS.
Btw, @timeltel good to know from you again. Suddenly dissapeared from Agon. Welcome " a board ".
Some Empires are black over clear, as is my Empire 4000DIII. Nothing inferior about it regarding sound quality in my experience. It’s still nude mounted into the cantilever.
Anyway, I’ll give the new Empire stylus a try. It’s got to be better than any available after market offering.
Also, on a different note to Empire 4000d owners. JICO makes a nude Shibata with tapered cantilever for the Empire 4000D series. I’ve read very good performance for reasonable price.
The diamond on this one is black over a small clear section compared to all clear of the used stylus.
When you see something like that it is a Bonded diamond, not a Nude One. Bonded diamonds are inferior and much cheaped than Nude diamonds (they are always chrystal clear)
timeltel, the cantilever on stylus that came with the cartridge is about 1mm at back end with a slight taper forward. Not nearly as thin tapered as a 4000dIII though. The cantilever is About 5.5mm long and the tube in the back is shorter than the Bluz Bros sample.
The Bluz Bros stylus came in small plastic clear holder branded Empire Scientific Corporation. The cantilever on this one is the same size as your sample. The diamond on this one is black over a small clear section compared to all clear of the used stylus. The tracking force spec in the cartridge manual is 1/4 to 1 1/4. So the new stylus is slightly higher minimum tracking force. And Different diamond identification, the new one marked nude elliptical vs the cartridge manual says hand polished micro elliptical. It seems the Bluz Bros is an original, but Empire made changes at some point.
Also, the reason I thought the Bluz Bros was a fake, is all the used 1000ZE/X cartridges I’ve seen for sale have the same larger type cantilever as mine. Not the smaller straight tube like yours and my replacement.
Replacement for: 1000ZE/X Stylus model: Empire S1000ZE/X-ERD TIP: 0.2 X 0.7 mil. Nude Elliptical Diamond Tracking Force: 0.75 to 1.25
You wrote: "is it possible a later version of the stylus?"
Empire went through a number of transitions. Originally Dyna-Empire, then Audio-Empire, finally Empire Scientific in the mid 1960’s. According to Stereophile (December 1990), Ernest Benz bought Empire Scientific sometime between 1981/1982. Russel Industries then acquired the operation sometime in the mid '80's. The availability of replacement styli and cartridges utilizing the Empire brand continued for a while but quality was thought to not be that of the original offerings.
I have a 1000ZE/X stylus, purchased NOS quite a while ago. This example is packaged in a hinged walnut box, this in a pasteboard sleeve labeled from "Empire Scientific". The cantilever is a fine straight tube of approximately .75mm wide, 3.5mm exposed length. The accompanying pamphlet refers to "The new 598 turntable". Supplanted by the Model 698 in 1976, the 598 was introduced in late 1969. The 1000ZE/X cart. was supplied with that TT.
1000ZE/X specs (Emp. Sci.) : Fr. Resp: 4-40k output: 5.0mv ch. sep: 35+ tr. force: 1/4 to 1-1/4gm stylus: .2x.7 hand polished micro elliptical.
The specs. given on the B. Bros. listing differ. It is possible your stylus is a "genuine" Empire replacement but the values given by B. Bro. are not the equivalent of the original from Emp. Sci.
I cannot believe the natural sound I get from vintage MM cartridges. When they are gone then what? Do any of the newer models even come close to the delicate subtleties of the vintage MM cartridges?
Most of the sellers are playin' fools, but once someone poited out that a cartridge stylus is fake then why they’re still selling them as originals ? Everyone has a right for mistake, but since the buyers explained them it is not the original and if they did not corrected their error then they are cheaters. I’ve seen sellers like that many times. What would be nice is just to add a high resolution picture of the cantilever and stylus, then everyone can see what they’re buyin to avoid fake. Many sellers can’t even make a picture.
Halcro, yes it was them. I did get actual originals from them already but this one obviously is a fake. He acted as if he had no clue of any difference, I will be sending it back and receiving a refund.
I just received an “original” replacement stylus for the Empire 1000ZE/x The plastic guard is marked with the Empire logo but the cantilever and diamond are completely different.
If you bought your stylus from The Blues Bros, then you have been ripped off. Happened to me years ago.....
Wow, your post was long and informative. Thanks...
Let me tell you my experience. I have come to experience (not believe) that it is NOT the type of the cartridge (MM/MC) but more the actual type of the stylus (elliptical, shibata, microline, van den hul, etc) that seems to make a much bigger difference to the quality of sound. I am not saying that a $500 MM cartridge sounds as good as the $10,000 Lyra atlas but when properly furnished with a good stylus, most MM cartridges are about 80-90% of the performance of an MC cartridge.... especially with my hearing :-) The difference is definitely not worth the $9500 price difference.
Also, MM carts are cheaper, styli can be replaced and they do not need very expensive phono stages. Plus, most seem to be of relatively higher compliance so they can be used with lighter arms. So, if you have an older vintage arm, MMs are typically more suitable to be used.
The problem with top vintage carts is that if we do not buy styli today they will cost more tomorrow. Or we need a time machine to go back in the 80s for them :)
So there is the problem with these vintage cartridges. Most of the really great models original stylus stock is gone forever and if you do find one they are very expensive. Empire EDR.9 stylus for sale on eBay for $399.00! The seller said he had five and sold all but one. I like that cartridge but I wouldn’t pay that much for a stylus...
I called the seller of this stylus and he said he was unaware of the difference and sure it was an original. He offered to refund my money if he can’t find a sample with the same cantilever and tip as my original. I may then try a Jico replacement at some time, at least I know of the quality level then.
I just received an “original” replacement stylus for the Empire 1000ZE/x The plastic guard is marked with the Empire logo but the cantilever and diamond are completely different. The original I had had a longer, tapered cantilever with a sharper looking diamond compared to the new one with shorter straight cantilever with a red dot and rounder looking diamond. I think I’ve been ripped off!
Also the damper is different, is it possible a later version of the stylus? I’m thinking I’ve been lied to and ripped off. It may just be a cheap copy for high price.
@jpjones3318 I got lucky with 205c mk4 as stated in my earlier posts, however i really doubt it is even possible to find healthy one. They are all lowriders, even unused samples, at least in my experience, i've tried many samples. The 205 mk3 does not worth the effort at all (i;ve had them too, at least 4 of them).
Never tried 100c mk4, but as i said the price today is absolutely insane.
I am not a fan or collector of Technics gear, so for me it is not important to have them, but i got other rare cartridges and all of them are better than my ex MINT condition 205c mk4.
I've tried pretty much everything: Original, Refurbished by Axel, JICO SAS. In total i've tried at least 6 samples of 205c mk4.
Technics mich be ok for those with unlimited budget to buy all the existing samples hoping to find 1 out of 10 with good suspension. Or for those who like refurbished cartridges better than the original.
That's what I listened in 2010 but almost 9 years latter and with my today " heavy " up-graded room/system no doubt that a " new " listen is just mandatory and I will do as soon my time permit it.
Chakster, I loved the ML170 I once owned. I bought it used for around $200.00. Eventually One channel went dead, I managed to get it apart and the hair thin wire of one coil was detached and I couldn’t get it resoldered. Got frustrated and tossed the body and sold the stylus and original packaging for what I paid for the whole cartridge.
Bad luck? I’ve bought at least 3 samples over the years, never had any single problem with them (until a friend came to break the cantilever :). Sold them when i discovered AT-ML180 (which i still own and like a lot, got NOS styli for it too, still sealed, it’s a keeper, love this cartridge). I must say that AT-ML180 was released in two different versions, please look at my boxes and read what is written about cantilever material on each box. Any AT-ML180 is much better than AT-ML170 (which is also great cartridge). Read this article if you haven’t seen it before.
I dont own any Technics models anymore, all sold off. They were fine, especially the P100CMKIV, but not as involving and “alive” as my Empires.
Yes, this is exactly what i feel about Technics cartridges, not only me, but folks who discovered a better cartridges also sold their Technics. Well, i’ve never tried an Empire cartridges, but as an alternative to the bright Technics 100c mk3 and 205c mk4 i love the Stanton cartridges like the SC-100 WOS or 981 series. This is what i call very involving sound, just pure joy.
Dear @moonglum : Thank's to share that youtube link, interesting one.
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Previously I was against the idea of either re-tipping or buying 2nd hand carts but hearing some of these has altered my viewpoint. :) """
Good that you changed your mind.
Now, the video " talks " about Ortofon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Supex, etc, MC vitatge cartridges.
All these ones I named but Yamaha designed MM/MI vintage cartridges too ( as Technics or AT and even vDh. ). Well in all cases the manufacturers LOMC designed cartridges outperforms its best MM/MI on each one catalog.JVC/Vuictor is another good example on that: I owned the very best MM cartridge from them and the top 1000 LOMC very special design and beats easily its best MM " brothers ".
The Yamaha LOMC are really good as is the Supex SDX 1100R that I owned and put on sale ( a stupid decision from my part. ) because in those " old " times of tghis thread the euphoria belongs to the MM/MI cartridges. I already listened almost every LOMC/HOMC by Supex and nothing is near the 1100R.
MM/MI is a really good TRUE ALTERNATIVE that 10 years ago many of us really did not " knew " , was a real discovery: at least for me and still I'm discovering both MM/LOMC gems like that ADC 26/27.
Chakster, I loved the ML170 I once owned. I bought it used for around $200.00. Eventually One channel went dead, I managed to get it apart and the hair thin wire of one coil was detached and I couldn’t get it resoldered. Got frustrated and tossed the body and sold the stylus and original packaging for what I paid for the whole cartridge.
I dont own any Technics models anymore, all sold off. They were fine, especially the P100CMKIV, but not as involving and “alive” as my Empires. Though not as refined the empires still remain my favorite. I guess I’m an Empire junkie. There are folks who love and swear by the old Shure models as well, though I nevered found them that special. I just sold a mediocre Shure M91EM for $40.00. I was surprised at the amount of views that auction recieved.
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel@travbrow and friends : Forgeret about that 180/170 AT cartridges. Yes in those old times I was " crazy " about those cartridges and I owned way before I started this thread. Even exist better performers in the AT/signet whole catalog.
Btw, I still own a 170. Any one of you could think I will buy that ATN replacement 180? it's useless perhaps only to make " bu$sine$$ " but I don't like to take money from others in a non-honest way.
Anyway, maybe after all these posts about the 2000 by Empire dgarretson decided to listen it. I don't know.
Dear @travbrow : I can tell you that I still have more than 20 emails between he and me just from the very first one where I told him the kind of shipping service I need it where I emailed tghe names of those shippers.
The AT-ML 180 OCC or OFC is clearly much better cartridge than original Technics EPC-205c mk4.
Here is a pair of my 205c mk4 , i also tried Jico SAS Boron on it and also had refurbished 205c mk4 by Axel. So have tried every possible variation of 205c mk4.
None of them can beat the Audio-Technica AT-ML180 OFC or OCC First of all the Audio-Technica stylus profile is MicroLine, but the Technics profile is just pain Elliptical. The tip mass is extremely low on AT-ML180, the presentation is much more involving, the suspension never fails.
I must say that Grace F14 Boron/MicroRidge or LEVEL II Boron/MicroRidge are also much better cartridges than Technics 205c mk4 or 100c mk3 (imo).
A fairy tales about superiosity of Technics cartridges is an urbal legend, a chance to buy Technics cartridge with good suspension/dampes is close to ZERO, the price is insane today and everyone will cause only more troubles and will spent a fortune to refurbish it with VdH.
I’ve been there, tried them and discovered much better cartridges with zero problems in operation, they are all designed with equal or better cantilevers, better diamond profiles etc.
I’m pretty sure that every Technics cartridge owner already find a better cartridge if he tried to.
This blind faith in Technics carts is nonsense!
Let’s face it, at least after 10 years of research someone should say it in this thread.
Raul, before the 205mkiv and 100c, I did send Axel a P100CMKIV cart and stylus to check along with a NOS S100ED4 stylus with a slanted cantilever to repair. Though it took a couple months, he fixed the stylus and checked the cartridge which was good condition he said. He emailed before shipping with cost and I paid. I received not long after.
The second batch, he wouldn’t even answer several emails within the first year. I gave up and thought he might of passed away or they got lost and he wouldn’t care to acknowledge the situation. Anyway, not near the expensive loss you experienced.
Dear @travbrow : Yes, that 2000 has to be very good performer was designed with the similar but nott the same characteristics than the D3 and as I said its price was almost the double of the D3 and this means " something ".
In the other side, no single AT vintage/today model beats the 100CMK4 or the 205MK4 that was the latest top pof the line manufactured by Technics, the 205 came after the 100MK4.
In those old times I was lucky enough to find out a 100CMK4 source whom had 7 NOS samples of stand alone version ! ! and I shared in this thread. From those 7 NOS samples at least ( including mine ) 3 had " trouble " with suspension and that german re-tipper told me he can't repair it.
Then I contact Dr. vDh and he accepted to fix mine and a second sample from other agoner, things are that the 100CMK$ was the reference cartridge for Dr. vDh.
When return the fixed 100MK4 sounds really good and better than in original stock condition. Same happened with the other gentleman that I shared the vDh opportunity to it. Yes, I listen the NOS unit by no more than two weeks before colapsed but my 205MK4 ( stand alone version. ) neves gave me any trouble at all and I was so stupid that one day I put on sale: go figure !.
Btw, as you that retipper still has at least 7 cartridges 2 MM/MI and 5 MCs that never returns because he and me had a hot trouble that was originated by a mistake from him self:
things are that in those times ( when I discovered and shared/introduce here and almost everywhere that retipper. ) and at some moment I started to buy vintage cartridges and ask the sellers not to ship to me but to him, so he received " tons " of cartridges from my self that he fixed and time to time he shipped 3-4 fixed cartridges using german mail service and I had many troubles with this kind of shipping. So I told him by email and phone call that start to ship my cartridges by Fedex, UPS or DHL 48 hours service ( I was whom pay for that expensive shipping way. ). Next time he made a ship for 6 fixed cartridges ( all vintage extremely hard to find out, almost impossible. ) that as always I made at least 50% of the payment ( he always had more than 8-10 cartridges waiting to fix it for me. ) and he shipped not only for his usual mail service but to a wrong addresses in USA ( because I ask him that he do that: USA not México. ). Till today never received those 6 truly gems and obviously I did not send the other 50% of the payment because he made it not one but 2 mistakes. Those 6 cartridges had a price of over 6k dollars, not inexpensive ones but as I said no way to find out again. He said he lost but in reality I think I lost more a lot more.
Never mind as you, I'm still waiting for my cartridges even if are not fixed.
I really forgot about till today you posted on that bad experience.
Someone has to buy that ATN180 stylus, it's extremely rare and almost impossible to find. And even if you don't have a cartridge generator (budy), you can have mine to add the stylus on :)
It is only one ATN-180 for sale, my mistake. Anyone try a Pickering 4004 p-mount? Possibly still limited samples still available NOS, though almost $500.00
The nature of audiophilia is upgrade indeed, for me at least over the decades. I have tried a few of the cartridge of the month, used and NOS, but very seldom got excited of my "new toy". A couple of exceptions such as ASTATIC MF 2500 have been a delight but haven´t still found a cartridge MC or MM or MI or IM that could outperform classic vintage performers such as Highphonic MC R5, Grace F-14 (plain black stylus/cantilever ass`y could be boron w/ ML stylus ?), GLANZ MFG-610LX, let alone SHURE ULTRA 500. However, I´ll keep on searching.
Pickering XLZ-7500-S w/ Line Contact is sadly discontinued but I´d like try one because it´s interestingly a hybrid having the best from both MC and MM worlds. After that my next step would be a Soundsmith MI Fixed Coil.
You gotta have a reference to make progress. Some audiophiles don´t care for progress and just enjoy new things but that´s a another story.
Btw, I only see one AT- ML180 for sale, is the other already gone ?
Good that your lucky enough to own those reference quality cartridges. My reference is at a lower level because of budget and availability issues. I was thinking that Axel probably retired, but at a loss as to why he never returned my cartridges, even if he couldn’t repair, I still expected them returned.
Chakster, I’ve owned a few Technics with BORON pipe cantilever and they were very good. Yes they can suffer suspension collapse. I owned a Technics P205CMKIV with bad suspension and sent it to that guy in Germany (along with a Technics 100c) about 5 years ago, never seen or heard from again. It’s a risk to buy those Technics models, though I just read an add at eBay for a new repair service of Technics 100c models.
Reparing Technics EPC series is very bad idea, i've had repaired samples from Axel (that German vendor is retired now). Investment is not worth it. There are much better carts around. Technics 205 mk4 and 100c mk4 is stupidly expensive and 99% of them suffer from suspension problems.
I have to disagree with the idea that a cartridge without some fancy cantilever and stylus is automatically junk. Is that what your telling me?
I'm not trying to say it's automatically better, but the problem is that you can't compare different styli on one cartridge. You could do that with Grace F14 or LEVEL II for example, because the company gave a customes a wide choice of styli from entry level Aluminum/Elliptical combo to the high-end Beryllium/MicroRidge or Boron/MicroRidge. Anyone can swap a styli on the same Grace cartridge (amazing option), once you hear Beryllium/MicroRidge it makes no sence to return to the Aluminum/Elliptical, the difference is huge.
When we're comparing one cartridge to different cartridge is a different story.
I guess I’m easily impressed or just not as critical of a listener.
We're all impressed by a new toys, but i just said that comparison must be made to some reference cartridges, i'm curious to which reference cartridge you (or anybody else) comparing their new discoveries?
Because for me one cartridge is impressive until i will find a much better cartridge. The nature of audiophilia is upgrade, not downgrade. Right?
I can not find anything better that my top 7 reference MM for example, i wish i could, but i can't find anything close. Some carts are really good, but not as good as a reference models.
Chakster, I’ve owned a few Technics with BORON pipe cantilever and they were very good. Yes they can suffer suspension collapse. I owned a Technics P205CMKIV with bad suspension and sent it to that guy in Germany (along with a Technics 100c) about 5 years ago, never seen or heard from again. It’s a risk to buy those Technics models, though I just read an add at eBay for a new repair service of Technics 100c models.
I have to disagree with the idea that a cartridge without some fancy cantilever and stylus is automatically junk. Is that what your telling me? I guess I’m easily impressed or just not as critical of a listener.
Raul, I’ve read some might prefer the TOTL Empire 2000 model over the 4000D quad models, say they are very close in performance. I’ve never owned the 2000 series but I’m sure it’s a good one.
Chakster, most of those cartridges you mentioned are hard to find and mostly not cheap. I’ve recently seen a USED ATML180 for $1400.00! Most of the cartridges I bought were under $200.00. I like finding bargains like the last one I bought, an Empire 4000DIII in excellent condition for $177.00 bucks. I like some of those lowly aluminum elliptical models.
If i were you i'd love to buy all them when they were $200 each, but i have joined MM marathon when none of them were cheap. A fellow collector offered me $3k for NOS AT-ML180 in factory box (unused), it was hard to resist. I think $1400 for a used AT-ML180 is more than fair price nowadays. At the same time an inferior cartridge, compared to AT-ML180 (the Technics 205c mk4 with suspension problem) normally goes for $1500 minimum, even in Japan and for up to $2k on ebay. I regret that i sold mine for about $700 few years ago.
I think the great bargain is Glanz MF-610LX, but "bargain" today is $300-450 in my opinion when it comes to serious performers (not junk) with Boron cantilevers and LineContact type of styli.
Dear @travbrow : I think is time for me to listen a gain the 4000D# and 1000ZE/X. I'm sure it will be a new " discovery " due to many up-grades to my system since I started this thread.
Even today for me is " incredible " that the D3 can tracks at VTF as low as: 0.25grs. ! ! and was designed for " 4 channels " recordings and with no need of a Shibata stylus tip as the old ATs.
After listening to these Empires's I will come back here to comment about. Rigth now I'm testing a true new vintage cartridges for the very first time, I have many waiting " on desk ".
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