Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

I can hardly wait’ll you knuckledraggers get a load of the $24K interconnects and $40K speaker cables. Try not to have an brain aneurism.

Another innovation Tannoy utilizes - at least for their flagship model - is cryo'ing the internal wiring and the entire crossover assembly. 

Almarg
So if a silver cable sounds better in a given application than a copper cable, the slightly higher conductivity/lower resistivity of silver compared to copper is very unlikely to be the reason.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that silver never sounds like copper, not under any conditions. Of course it would also be fair to say all silver cables don't sound alike. Nor do all copper cables sound alike. Nor do amorphous conductors like carbon sound like metal conductors. 

Re the "good succinct article on cables"

Obviously it’s not really too hard to find a bunch of audiophiles somewhere who either can’t set up a system correctly and/or can’t hear. In fact, we see it quite frequently right here on Agon. Actually no single test of anything proves anything, I’m afraid. If everyone at the test heard it you could say, well, it was rigged, group hypnosis or peer pressure. 😄

dlcockrum
Contrary to popular opinion (apparently), not many audio buyers mindlessly throw money at cables that don’t provide audible benefits in their system, according to their personal tastes and preferences.

eggs ackley! Besides, most cables have 30 day guarantee or whatever. And I doubt any well heeled audiophiles with half a brain pays retail these days. Lol not to mention high end cble can be had for great bargains right here on Audiogon. One man’s treasure is another man’s trash. Lol and anyone can borrow high end cables or power cords from Cable Company for extended auditions. So, one has to ask, uh, where’s the beef?

I suspect all this hand-wringing over cables that has been going on like forever will prove to be nothing more than a symptom of Mid Fi angst and jealousy. 😩

99% pure copper? Gosh, you really are naive. Besides, the uber expensivo cables usually aren't copper. Hel-loo!

Jetter
Ok Geoff, I was being lazy and didn’t bother to look up the specs, here you go, costing $15:

Choice™ Series 12AWG Oxygen-Free Pure Bare Copper Speaker Wire, 50ft. Get the most out of your home audio system with high quality, oxygen-free, pure bare copper speaker wire from Monoprice! This speaker wire features two conductors made of high purity (greater than 99.95% pure), oxygen-free bare copper. Pure Bare Copper is a superior conductor to the copper clad aluminum (CCA) conductors used in most other inexpensive speaker wire. ..

Copper clad aluminum conductors in most other inexpensive speaker wire? What? Whoa! Are they smoking crack? Talk about a marketing genius!

Most high end copper wire is 99.9999% pure. The Japanese stuff is even purer. Do the math. That’s more than 100 times purer than 99.95% pure copper. Hel-loo!

Geoffkait: Besides, the uber expensivo cables usually aren’t copper. Hel-loo!

to which jitter replied,

"Yes I know, silver or gold, emblazoned with magnets and graphene. With the correct directionality marked, of course, and cryoed."

Ouch! Touché!

Jitter
Geoff stuttered:
most high end wire is 99.9999 pure. Do the math. That’s more than 100 times purer than 99.95% pure copper. Hel-loo

to which jitter replied,

"Let say the high end wire was 100% pure. The monoprice wire at 99.95% pure is 5 one hundredths of a percent purer. In multiplication that amounts to .05 of 1%(.01) purer."

Gee whiz, I must have had more math than you, jitter. Your numbers don’t make any sense. I have to assume you're pulling my leg.

From the Acrolink website (Japan)

"There is a strong demand in the market for high purity copper with a purity level of 6N or more, which is used to produce the wire material of highly integrated semiconductors. It had been developed and put in practical use in 1997. As a matter of fact, the only companies in the world today producing high purity raw copper in large quantities are none other than Nikko Materials Co. Ltd. and Mitsubishi Materials Co. Ltd. The business circles of integrated semiconductors demand a guarantee of high quality for raw materials, and in fact no enterprise is satisfied with the copper that has less purity than 6N copper for the purposes of mass production of their products. ACROLINK, the only cable-maker in the world that uses 6N copper and copper of higher purity receives a guarantee of analyzed values through a tie-up with the aforementioned two companies.

There is a strong demand in the market for high purity copper with a purity level of 6N or more, which is used to produce the wire material of highly integrated semiconductors. It had been developed and put in practical use in 1997. As a matter of fact, the only companies in the world today producing high purity raw copper in large quantities are none other than Nikko Materials Co. Ltd. and Mitsubishi Materials Co. Ltd. The business circles of integrated semiconductors demand a guarantee of high quality for raw materials, and in fact no enterprise is satisfied with the copper that has less purity than 6N copper for the purposes of mass production of their products. ACROLINK, the only cable-maker in the world that uses 6N copper and copper of higher purity receives a guarantee of analyzed values through a tie-up with the aforementioned two companies.

Currently in the field of audio cables, representation of the purity degree of raw materials has been offered in the form of 6N, 7N, 8N, etc. However, from the viewpoint of scientific reality, the percentage of raw materials should be calculated by the differential value method. Strictly speaking, the purity of copper should be shown in the form of numerical numbers, after the total amount of the quantitative measurements of the other metallic elements( impure materials )other than pure gold on the periodic table, are subtracted from 100. Under the current situation where there is no agreement to show quality standards, the values of the amounts of the raw material( indication of purity) will vary according to each case where some impurities can be counted and others can not. In other words, it is even possible to remove intentionally a certain impurity, i.e. a certain metallic element with a higher value, from the measurement. For instance, general purpose Japanese copper metal has a purity degree of 4N5 with a purity of 99.995% but there are several impurities such as Ag that have very high degrees of impurity. If it is excluded from the targets for the differential value method, it immediately enables you to publicize the data that the copper has a high degree of purity, i.e. a higher degree than 5N because Ag has the purity degree of 10ppm or so.

Cables produced by ACROLINK, use self-stipulated 6N copper constructed using the same process as is used with wires for semiconductor devices, which requires a guarantee of high quality. More precisely, the purity of the copper needs to be over 99.9999% and the total of any impurity metals must be less than 1 ppm.

Impurity metals in over 6N purity copper are measured mostly with highly precise measuring instruments called GD-Ms (GD-Mass), and this type of analysis work requires advanced know-how. Leading other brands, ACROLINK has disclosed to the public the analyzed values of representative elements that may affect sound qualities. These were selected out of the whole body of elements consisting of fifty or sixty items."

Appeal to Authority Alert!!

"Dr. Waldron has two Phd’s in music and computer science and over thirty years as a recording and mastering engineer. Who do you think I’m going to put credibility in?"

Sorry to say, that just screams Appeal to Authority. You know, an illogical argument. An excellent example, actually.

cheers

Dynaquest4

No worries. here's the explanation of what I posted.

Argument from authority, also ad verecundiam and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy.[1]

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:[3]

A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct
Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[4][5][6][7] as authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[8]

Forms
General
The argument from authority can take several forms. As a syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:[5][9]

A says P about subject matter S.
A should be trusted about subject matter S.
Therefore, P is correct.
The second premise is not accepted as valid, as it amounts to an unfounded assertion that leads to circular reasoning able to define person or group A into inerrancy on any subject matter.[5][10]

dynaquesr4 
@ dlcockrum: I may have missed your point but I doubt seriously I missed the point. That point is that before people spend hundreds or (even) thousands of dollars on pretty cables with shiney connects, that come in felt bags and wooden boxes, that they are aware of the insideous power of the subconscious that will lead their ears to justify the money they spent on accessories that are incapable of improving audio signals. That psyco-effect is real. To deny it is sophomoric.

No one is saying there is NO SUCH THING as expectation bias or placebo effect or any other psychological phenomenon. But it's folly to believe that all listening is based on these psychological phenomena. That's why there are tests to eliminate psychological issues from the test. That's why we have AB, AB tests, and why we have often prefer long periods of evaluation - to be able to understand the real differences in sound, assuming they exist, and eliminate psychological issues. If you really believe that psychological issues always cloud your judgement in making audio decisions I reckon you have probably psyched yourself out.

And those cheap giant killer cables are? .... drum roll....

And those overpriced high end cables are? .....drum roll....

+1 Dill. You can also call a couple of Dixie cups connected by some string a communication system. These sorts of ridiculous arguments as Randee keeps coming up with only serve to bolster the theory there’s an ever-widening chasm between the Mid Fi crowd and the High Enders.

Well, obviously there's a lot more to the hobby than plopping down a bunch of money and plugging it all in. That's kind of what separates the Hollywood pretend audiophiles from the real audiophiles.

mitch2
"Hollywood ... audiophile" sounds kind of fun. Where do I sign up?

Apparently you're already signed up. Your picture is on their web site.

I’ve been to the top of the mountain (not just Base Camp) and this is what I found out.

- A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into Audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle. 🐪

- Necessity is the mother of invention.

- An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. 😳

- Generally speaking, people would be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little.

Joke: two guys were sitting next to each other in a commercial airliner. One guy looks out the window says to the other, gee, those people look just like ants. The other guy replies, they are ants, dummy. We haven’t taken off yet.

Double blind tests have a place in medicine, at least that's what they say. They certainly have no place in audio. At least inasmuch as they actually prove anything about a device under test. 

Shadorne,

How about providing an example of hyperbole used in marketing of cables? Are you making this up?

A good example is wheels, not tires so much. Example: on the 2017 Mustang GT350R, the one with magnetic suspension and the incredible high revving engine, the wheels are an additional $15K over the standard GT350. Why, you ask. Because they are carbon fiber. And because that’s what they cost, retail. I'm only guessing but most likely wheels for Lamborghini and Ferarri cost even more. For reference wheels for the $3M Agera or whatever the new name is are also carbon fiber, made in house. If you’re uncomfortable paying $3M for a car, don’t worry they’re all gone.

Of course it won’t turn a BMW into a Ferarri. You have to do everything right. That’s why the ordinary audiophile dude won’t benefit too much from expensive cables or expensive anything in a system that’s not worthy. But in some systems, then you will see the Ferarri. Remember those little VWs with the aftermarket Rolls Royce grill? They didn't really drive like a Rolls Royce.

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I kind of doubt anybody with a modest system is springing for uber expensive cables or power cords. Those are for the big boys, the ones with big expensive systems. Of course most of us want bang for the buck.

dynaquest4
Assuming that exotic cables do, in fact, cancel out or mitigate external influences that distort or otherwise modify pure audio signal transmission, it would seem that the more expensive your system, the less you would need cables and other interconnects to assuage these issues. But, no...it seems otherwise. The more you spend on your system components the more you need to spend on wire to cancel out these external influences. Interesting.

But no one is saying that (only) exotic cables cancel out or mitigate external influences or that that's the reason exotic cables are better. Therefore I suggest gently placing your assertion in the Strawman argument basket.

 
dynaquest4
Well, geoff, are you saying that cables actually and actively "change" the audio signal. Who would want that? Good audio equipment should neither add nor take away anything from the audio signal. If you want to modify the sound coming from your speakers or the pressure waves reaching your ears, use EQ or modify the acoustic qualities of your listening area.

>>>>No, I'm not saying that. Stop putting words in my mouth!


dynaquest4
If expensive aftermarket cables, are made to approach perfection in audio transmission, wouldn't perfection be doing nothing to the signal while preventing any outside influence from changing the signal?

>>>>You said it, not me. Are you answering your own questions now?

Don’t be a hater. Be a lover. Yeah! Embrace the void! "But first...are you...experienced?" 😄

"One key point that keeps hitting me squarely between the eyes about this thread though is that I see myriad references to real science, scientific method, etc...on this thread but when I read through everything carefully and objectively, I don’t see real science or scientific method being utilized. I see scientific jargon being utilized to justify a point of view but little if any real science or hard test results being presented regarding cables good or bad."

That’s what naysayers do.  The way they’ve always done it, the way they'll always do it. You know what I’m taking about: Science cannot not allow it. You can’t disobey the laws of science. Anyone who knows science knows it. Anyone who ever took 12th grade science knows (blah blah blah). This is what naysayers have been saying for 40 years. Why on Earth would they stop now?

from Zen and the Art of Debunkery,

"Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics."

So, are you saying nobody is right? That’s an interesting thought. You make it sound like a theological argument, that these points of view are nothing more than beliefs. I suspect most of the differences can be settled by experience. Maybe like an epiphany. 😀

Whether you have inexpensive cables and power cords or more expensive high end models you will undoubtedly benefit from carbon fiber sleeves on all cables and power cords. Available on eBay in various diameters and lengths, two to three day delivery. If you want one meter select x1 and if you want two meter length select x2 and so forth. See what all the fuss is about.

Don’t worry, we know where you’re coming from. 🤡

Uh, so what’s your point? 🤡

willemj
The point is that those who are critical are indeed not infrequently abused by calling them trolls, nay sayers, pseudo scientists, jealous, deaf, or impoverished owners of inadequate gear.

>>>>>Well, it’s not as if you are completely innocent. Shall I cut and paste some of your more colorful comments here? Besides, look on the bright side. I’ve never ever called anyone a bozo, an idiot or an __clown.

Carbon fiber is highly conductive thus acts as excellent RFI/EMI shield. Even if the cable is already shielded with copper. Carbon fiber cloth sheets can be draped over equipment for additional shielding. Ooo la la!

To be more specific here’s the blurb from Elite Motoring, where I get my stuff. These sleeves look good! 

”Carbon Fiber Fabric Sleeve 1.5"/38.10mm Diameter 3k Aerospace 8.3oz 281gsm. This Fabric is Aerospace Grade. This fabric is woven into a tube/sleeve so you can easily make straight or curved pipes with no seams. These sleeves will expand in diameter if the ends are pushed together and also will decrease in diameter if pulled from both ends. This 1.5"/38.1 mm Diameter sleeve will have estimated range of 0.6"-1.75"(15.24mm-44.45mm) Diameter. This sleeving has a tow size of 3k which will yield a lighter and easier to work with fabric. Thickness is 0.013"/0.33mm. These carbon sleeves have a 34Msi Modulus stiffness with a 640ksi Tensile strength. .022 lbs. per foot.”

- your humble scribe

Dude, you’re following the wrong, you know....

🐑

Have I got a flash for you, flashbazbo. High current is not (rpt not) going to the speakers. Problem solved. 🤠

Split camp on cables? I’m sure you must be mistaken, sir. Everyone has always agreed, ever since Polk and Fulton came out with those really cool cables, what was it, 40 years ago?

Uh, what would you like them to measure? In your heart of hearts.

iaeles
“The best solution is to attend live, unamplified music and use similar recorded music to calibrate your system. Any system that can accurately replicate the dynamics and air of live music is going to breeze with compressed, over eq’d pop.”

>>>>>Sorry, that makes no sense. An excellent system ( wide frequency respone, high dynamic range) will still sound like dog doo 💩 with overly compressed music of any type. It will still be overly compressed dynamic range wise. You can’t be more dynamic than the source. Hel-loo!

I trust your hearing is better than your reading comprehension. 🤡

Like they teach you in boot camp, when you negotiate the live fire course on your belly through the mud and barb wire with your rifle tucked in your arms remember to keep your butt down. Otherwise...you know 😩

Hey baby, you better come here quick. This old audio stuff is making me sick. Audio all around my brain. Tweaks are for horses and not for men. Doctor said it kill you, but he don’t say when.

Only quote facts. If you don’t think R makes a difference, even a very small R, just try reversing the direction of a fuse sometime. Or even better, interconnects, of the unshielded variety.

mitch2
Geoff, I did indeed try reversing a fuse and the most noticeable difference was the 15 minutes of my life I will never get back. I have now vowed to only try stupid audiophile parlor tricks at midnight during the fall switch from daylight savings to regular time, and to keep the time I spend on foolishness to less than one hour so I can pretend I didn’t waste my time.

>>>>I wouldn’t expect you to hear it, Sunshine. For any number of reasons, but most likely you just psyched yourself out. 😳 in any case, judging by other folks’ experiences yours is obviously an aberration and can be safely thrown out.

Sorry, we’ve eliminated placebo effect through careful testing. Better luck next time.

willemj
In fact, it is more than that: demand for them goes up, the higher the price, perhaps precisely because of the high price. They are what is called Veblen goods, with a positive price elasticity of demand.

>>>>Whoa! That’s funny! What came first, the chicken or the egg? 🐓 Of course the obvious problem with such a far-fetched conspiratorial theory of economics - that higher and higher prices increase demand further - is that very high priced cables actually do not (rpt not) sell that well compared to reasonably priced cables. Which makes sense given the percentage of extremely well-heeled audiophiles 👞 in the general population of audiophiles. It’s reasonably priced cables that sell the best - by far. Do the math.

Look, would you rather sell 10 cables at $5,000 a pair or 500 cables at only $500 a pair? Answer at 11. By the way, that same conspiratorial theory of economics that willemj supports is what forced so many high end companies to go out of business in the economic environment that we got after the system collapsed in 2008, produced by banks and a housing market in general that was convinced higher and higher prices meant economic success and security for everybody. Hel-loo!

Note to self: All this ruckus over high priced audiophile cables is starting to sound a lot like sour grapes. 🍇

I believe that’s called a drive-by shooting. Bang, bang! 

I suspect any hi end or mid fi audio company that targets aging and increasing deaf audiophiles should probably go back and revise their business plan. 

cd318
Difficult to argue with that logic. The one thing that’s certain is that some cables can make their dealers a lot more money. Seriously, if you believe the cable myths then you should also consider having your amp/ turntable/ CD player/ source rewired as well.

>>>>>>Now you’re getting warm. That’s the problem in a nutshell. All wiring should be controlled for directionality.   All fuses, speaker cables, interconnects, power cords - everything! Just like Audioquest controls directionality for all speakers cables, interconnects, power cords and HDMI cables. I contend the entire industry is in denial or else is simply ignorant. Can I say that? 😬 Since all wire is directional, all internal wiring of electronics and speakers should be controlled for directionality. All transformers, all digital cables, HDMI cables. Speaker crossovers, wire in resistors and capacitors. All of it. It’s time for the ostriches to pull their heads up out of the sand.

Oh, no! Not more Roger Russell!? Here we go again! Besides I actually don’t think I was agreeing with you. 🤠 All us old dudes know we can’t hear. You don’t have to rub it in.