Why are the vocals on some records hidden behind the music on my system?
Help! I am new to this forum, but have been into audio for over 45 years and have never had this problem before. I was lucky enough to come into some money and decided to use some of it to up grade my system for the first time in almost 30 yrs. The system consists of McIntosh MC-402, McIntosh C-100, McIntosh MCD-500, VPI HW19 MKIII, Soundsmith Aida, Furutech Ag-12 phono cable, Furutech silver head shell wires, Furutech interconnects and Furutech speaker cables (yes I like Furutech) and Raidho XT-3 speakers. Now on some albums the vocals are buried behind the music and you have a really hard time hearing the singer? Not all albums are voiced in this manner but enough that it is bothersome. I have a large dedicated man room (24 x 27) with minimum treatment. CDs sound just fine so I feel that it is with the phono preamp in the C-100? I have moved the speakers 100s of times and have them at 5' 8" apart and 8' 1" to the focal point and the soundstage is good and the vocals are better, but you still have to really listen hard to hear certain vocals on some albums. Most of my albums are 30 to 50 years old and have been cleaned with a sonic cleaner (best thing ever imho). Even some of my new heavy vinyl has this problem.
FWIW, Linda Ronstadt's 'Hasten Down The Wind' album is a classic example of the singer being lost in the mix. The musicians completely overwhelm her voice. I thought it was maybe a pressing mistake, so I sprung for a half-speed Master. Money well wasted. Her voice is still buried by the band. My opinion is that some mixers/engineers simply didn't have a clue or were too high when they made an album. Others had their act together and put out a well balanced sound.
I've tried equalization and other electronic compensations in the past, but the results were not satisfactory. If the source material isn't good, I just don't listen to it any more. BTW, I'm pretty finicky about VTA, VTF, and anti-skating, so those have already been considered.
So after you set the pin to the height of the front you move it to the back and back and forth until they match (same height at both ends, then it should be level (i.e. parallel to the record) at which time you can make your up or down adjustments.
Yep - you got the idea.
I did look at some of the commercially available products and they all had their drawbacks, especially when it comes to cartridges with angled sides/ends
The only Cartridge this device cannot align with any precision is the angled Ortofon cartridges that have the "drooped snout" look - but then they tend to use a non tapered arm tube, so that can be used to gauge the level.
Good luck with the setup - keep us posted as to your progress
scooby2do0cleeds-
read the article above provided by willewonka from soundsmith. It
states that they think you should start with the tone arm is to be
placed parallel to the record surface. Is that not 90 degrees? ...
I have no problem attempting a different method if it can give me better results
I'm familiar with phono cartridge set up so I'm sorry, but you're confused. A parallel arm will not give you a 90-degree VTA. It should result in your VTA being around 15 to 20 degrees.
I've previously explained what I think is the best approach to phono cartridge alignment. Start with tools that align the actual cantilever/stylus, such as the Mint or WallyTractor devices. Use a VTA gauge to actually measure the VTA. Then, make final adjustments by ear.
willewonka- So after you set the pin to the height of the front you move it to the back and back and forth until they match (same height at both ends, then it should be level (i.e. parallel to the record) at which time you can make your up or down adjustments. Sounds easy enough, thanks for the tip, I'm sure I have stuff lying around to make something that simple. This is what I attempted to do and you are right doing it by eye balling it is not easy. I wish I had a way to add your micrometer adjustment feature (I have two that I haven't used for years)
Kudos to Williewonka for pointing out the precision setup which is required for that stylus. I had one on a rebodied Denon 103R here and it is indeed a bit*h to setup; it is by far the most demanding stylus out there to set up IMO and extremely small setup errors or deviations can result in very poor sound quality from it, unlike many other line contacts (Peter's standard line contact among them) and micro ridges. Everything is absolutely critical with that stylus: VTA/SRA, alignment, VTF and azimuth.
Effischer is also correct about VTF as directly noted above and one thing that is not often realized is that unipivots with underslung counterweights like the VPI arm will tend to over-read VTF unless it is read EXACTLY at record height, which is why VPI in the past often recommended VTF at the highest recommended manufacturer setting or even slightly above.
So Scooby, if you are using a typical digital stylus force gauge with a platform that might be even 2-3 mm above actual record height, which is not much, the read you would get with that gauge would potentially be .2 to .3 grams HIGHER than the actual VTF.
So if you were using a fairly standard Canrong type gauge on your VPI and setting VTF at 1.3 , your actual VTF was probably closer to 1.1 which could have resulted in mistracking, poor sound quality etc. If you're using that kind of gauge and are set at 1.8, you're real VTF is probably closer to 1.6.
The article from TNT Audio linked to below discusses the mis-read; it is generally inconsequential with many arms, but with the VPI (or as I said earlier any unipivot with an underslung counterweight) it is a very big deal that can cause a lot of people grief.
cleeds- read the article above provided by willewonka from soundsmith. It states that they think you should start with the tone arm is to be placed parallel to the record surface. Is that not 90 degrees? that is what I was referring to, but after finding what I considered parallel (90 degrees) I adjusted up and down to find that by setting the head shell mounting plate at close to 90 degrees (again parallel to the record) resulted in the best sound with the vocals out front. If you have a different method to find vta explain in more detail and I will be more than happy to try it out. In that same article it also states that their styli have a hidden facet that can be up +/- 4 degrees from 90 degrees so that sar is unreliable to use as a method of set up. Their words not mine, so how do you think I should proceed given this information. I have no problem attempting a different method if it can give me better results. Right now it's not bad but I do feel like it might be possible to attain better sound but chasing around in circles without some idea of which way to go and a way to get there does me no good. An observation I made today was using what I call the walk around test. After making a change and setting in the "sweet spot" for awhile I would get up and walk to different point in the room to see the effect in those locations. Sometimes it was better that the SS and other times it was not, but at some point it should sound good at all most all points. Now it may take some room treatments to make that happen , but it was just interesting to observe .
IMO, the whole confusion between VTA and SRA stems from the fact that it is not possible to adjust one independently of the other. FWIW, arm manufacturers describe this adjustment as VTA while a corresponding SRA adjustment feature in a cartridge is not available. Regardless of what the geometric adjustment is called, the idea is to get the stylus to the correct vertical relationship between its edge profile and the grove of the record. While the -2 degree specification that Soundsmith insists on is a good place to start, the cutter heads on record presses may or may not hold that geometry. That's why an audible difference can be observed even between the 2 sides of the same record.
The issue of VTF is also a concern because it is affected by VTA. Physical adjustments have to made (e.g. changing VTA by removing the mat) to accommodate for the height of the scale tray relative to the combined OAH of the mat & vinyl. This is necessary to obtain a reasonably accurate VTF measurement for actual playback conditions. Every tonearm is a bit different, but a long-standing rule of thumb is to get the VTF set when the arm wand is parallel to what will become the vinyl surface. That will minimize VTA (inclusive of SRA) errors due to variations in vinyl thickness as well as minimizing induced VTF changes. As the OP has discovered, it's also a very tedious process in fixed VTA arms.
These points of geometry are precisely why I am such a big fan of VTA OTF capability in tonearms. Setting VTF becomes a rote task. VTA (again, inclusive of SRA) becomes something that can be unambiguously controlled in real time. It sounds better or it doesn't. Stop adjusting when it sounds as good as you can get it. The best arm and cartridge combos can resolve even minute differences to drive profound results.
Not everyone is willing to address all these minutiae simply to play recorded music, but the effort is worth it to me. That's why audio is such a great hobby!
well once again I fixated on the wrong point for setting vta. While trying to find 90 degrees using the tone arm (which showed no improvement) I figured out that it is the head shell that is to be used as the reference point!
You seem to be confused about phono cartridge alignment. First, you do not want a 90 degree VTA. VTA should typically be in the range of about 15 to 20 degrees. SRA should be in the 90 degree range. Perhaps you are confusing the two.
In any event, proper phono cartridge alignment doesn’t rely on the headshell as a reference point, but the cantilever (and stylus) itself. Your failure to recognize this goes a long way towards explaining the trouble you’re having with setup.
well once again I fixated on the wrong point for setting vta. While trying to find 90 degrees using the tone arm (which showed no improvement) I figured out that it is the head shell that is to be used as the reference point! Now that did make quiet a difference in the sound. Kudos to willewonka for pointing out article for soundsmith because where I was and where I am now might be 1/4" lower and sounds way better (not to say fine tuning may or may not help?).I think my next move will be to look into a TT with a vtaotf tone arm because there is no doubt that vta has a great deal of difference in the sound. I have learned a whole lot of things during this forum and hope to learn even more , this is why I came here in the first place was to learn.Thanks for all the help and ideas I'm sure I would have given up long ago if not for all of you taking an interest in my problem.
williewonka- I think I see what you are getting at especially after read the info you took the time to post from soundsmith . I wasn't trying to adjust the vta/sra via vtf on purpose, but I guess that .2 grams extra might be enough to cause the cantilever to bend enough to do just that. And if that is the case then it would mean that the vta still is to high, right? So now the problem is how to actually find an accurate way to find 90 deg.for the tone arm and then make the up and down adjustments that will then fail in the vta. My thought is to find something that can be laid on tt that is known to be straight and then view the gap at both ends of the tonearm to this item when viewed from the bottom side (as long as the tone arm is a straight tube ) I have a laser level but I would have to build some kind of jig to mount it on to focus it on the plane along the pivot point of the tone arm. So I'll back the vtf back to 1.6 grams and start over again and hope for the best from there. I do acknowledge that the previous fix was more of a bandage instead of a real life fix. I'll let you know how this effort works out. Who knew HI-FIing was so hard (lol)
One additional variable to consider: have you played with capacitance in the phono preamp? Like Fremer, I have found the high-output Soundsmith moving iron cartridges benefit from extra capacitive loading — the effect is to generally sound “fuller”, which might be what you are looking for.
@scooby2do - before you get playing records - sounds like you are adjusting tracking force to set the VTA?
The upper limit tracking weight should not be exceeded. You should not use it to set VTA/SRA
Most cartridges(but not all) are designed such that the top of the cartridge, that mates to the arm, should be parallel to the playing surface - this almost always ensures the SRA is correct or within acceptable tolerances
Some cartridges do respond better with a "Tail-up" or "Tail down" alignment, but that is accomplished using the VTA adjustment feature of the arm (if it has one) - not the cartridge tracking force
Firstly, let me explain a bit about VTA vs. SRA. This is a complex subject, one that is one of the most misunderstood aspects of cartridge design, manufacturing and alignment.
VTA is a term that describes the CANTILEVER tracking angle. Soundsmith uses cantilevers with VARIED designs of VTA. The universe of cartridges have historically been made with varied cantilever tracking angles over the many years, from as low as 15 degrees to as high as 30 or more. The angle of the cantilever is of little value, as it describes only the design of a particular cartridges use of a particular cantilever/stylus design. What is finally important is always the SRA, or Stylus Rake Angle. That must always be 2 degrees, raked back towards the direction of the incoming groove in the record – that matches the way most all records are made.
Soundsmith uses varied cantilevers, with varied VTA’s; these can change slightly from unit to unit as there is often variation in the mounting of the diamond as well as the faceting of the diamond. Many cartridge manufacturers do not take this into account carefully, and as a result, the resultant SRA can vary badly from unit to unit. Michael Fremer did an expose’ some time ago showing a very expensive NEW cartridge where the VTA was correct, but the SRA was not “just a bit off”, - in fact, it was not even close to being -2 degrees, but was PLUS 10 degrees. He posted a picture of it.
Recently the use of USB microscopes has brought a plethora of “experts” who believe they are viewing the SRA correctly. Often, they are fooled by the optics, an issue also complicated by the fact that by not realizing that by viewing the “shank” of the diamond they are not viewing the actual facet angle which traces the groove walls. This facet edge position VARIES from diamond to diamond within a single diamond stylus design as the shaft of the diamond is not always held perfectly in the tool that is used to hold it while the facets are being made. It can vary as much as +/- 4 degrees easily – WITHOUT the ability of being easily observed.
So, while folks believe that they obtaining correct SRA by viewing either the edge facet itself, the cantilever VTA or the diamond shaft, they can still be very far off. Knowing the VTA of a particular cantilever/diamond design is therefore of little value. Also of extreme importance is the fact that a STATIC view of SRA - versus how the cantilever moves UP when the record is playing, offers additional degrees of ERROR when using a USB microscope to determine proper SRA.
An interesting case is the diamond we use in many of our models, including the Sussurro. Many who view that diamond with optical aids are shocked to see that it is raked back by what appears to be as much as 20 degrees, and have questioned Soundsmith’s ability to mount a stylus.
This particular diamond we use in several of our designs has a “HIDDEN” facet at the bottom, thus returning the SRA to 2 degrees raked inward. A discussion of our stylus in this regard, and the explanation, can be found here:
The most important thing to know when setting up ANY cartridge is that if it lucky enough to have been made correctly, that when the cartridge is mounted, the tone arm should be parallel with the surface of the record. SRA adjustments up and down from there can be made, and there are many ways to do this by ear, with advice coming from many sources – sometimes with opposing views - all posted on the web.
Soundsmith cartridges differ from others in this respect; since we well recognize the many extreme variables in mounting, manufacturing and attaching diamonds and cantilevers – as well as the SUSPENSION differences from cartridge to cartridge in ALL types of cartridges, we make every effort to adjust each of our cartridges individually to the variable nature of the true SRA of each cantilever/stylus assembly.
Therefore, we assume that people who know about mounting and aligning cartridges know that one always starts with the tone arm parallel to the record, and adjusts up or down from there to listening preference.
So as you can see - the stylus angle should NOT be at 90 degrees.
It may sound better, but you may be doing damage to the stylus or your albums
Sounds like a nice find OP, sometimes it is so easy to chase around in ever decreasing circles only to realise you then have missed the blindingly obvious...lol. It is something I never even thought of asking but now you state it, I have just about always run my vtf at the top end of the spec for the cartridge used as it does seem to "dig deeper" into the music. Of course all the time spent on carefull setup has not gone to waste for sure! Now sit back, relax and enjoy the music!
Well everybody guess what? After adjusting and re-adjusting just about everything that has been brought up until my head was spinning I found something that we all missed. At least not that I remember seeing and was one of the easiest to fix and that was the VTF. The Aida shows a range of 1.3 to 1.6 grams as the optimum settings. I was running it at 1.3, just for grins I decided to increase it to the max of 1.6 and played an album that sounded bad and the vocals had increased to the point that I could understand what he was singing over the music. So just for grins again I increased it a little bit more and got even more vocals I have stopped at 1.8 grams which is 1/2 gram more than where I started. Maybe it just takes more weight to get the stylus into the groove far enough to retrieve the sound? Sure making all the other adjustments didn't hurt either but that is what has made the most improvement so far. williwonka- your right my old eyes aren't what the use to be, so I have been using a 30x jewelers loupe to view vta and attempt to set anti-skate. Even with that it is hard to see any deflection of the cantilever but it is enough to see the angle of the stylus and get it at close to 90 degrees.
@scooby2do - your Soundsmith Aida Has an Optimized Contour Line Contact Stylus - these require the MOST PRECISE setup!
I would highly recommend setting it up using the Best Mint Protractor first (or a protractor that provides for the same amount of precision) and get a younger pair of eyes to perform the setup for you with a very good loupe.
My setup took around two hours of dickering around with the setup and verifying it was correct using a digital camera for closeup analysis.
This stylus type is critical of mis-alignment but the rewards of getting it right is well worth it.
A printed protractor WILL NOT give you the precision required!
The anti-skate method as detailed on the Soundsmith web site basically mirrors Almarg’s post (i.e. you want to make sure there is no sideways force on the stylus) - with a few little refinements that may make a difference... https://www.sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-adjust-anti-skating-my-cartridge
To see if the position of the stylus is being altered when you lower the stylus on the record you should be using a good loupe. The naked eye is not really good enough for Soundsmith cartridges..
It then took just under 2 hours to get the A/S of my Soundsmith’d Denon cart with the Optimized Contour Line Contact Stylus just right. My cartridge is mounted on an Audiomods arm that use a weight and quadrant antiskate system to optimize the A/S force across the record. http://www.audiomods.co.uk/antiskatenotes2.pdfs
"Dial-in" anti skate systems can present issues that are difficult to rectify - My old rega arm was so far off I had to set the A/S dial to the maximum, so basically I had to use the "trust my ears" method...
Start with the dial set at zero
then play a troublesome track while you advance the dial in equal increments (e.g. 1/4 of a turn)
when is sounds good set the dial back half an increment to see if it sounds better or worse.
adjust in fine increments until best image is attained
It might be an easier/faster way to proceed.
Do this at the center of the recording surface, that way the beginning and end of the recorded surface will only be a little off, which is always the issue with dial A/S systems.
At some point during this process this cartridge should snap into focus.
@uberwaltz Yes; I adjust for every side of every record. My system easily resolves the difference and it only takes a moment. The effect is substantial and very much worth the effort to me. I recognize that not everyone is that picky or sensitive and that's just fine. To each their own.
I'd had a Rega with a LOMC for years and it just sounded like I was missing something. I then went to a Magnepan Unitrac arm with the same cart and a whole new world opened up for me. That was in 1984 and I've never looked back.
The OP just described the same effect after doing some more adjustment, so thought I'd share my experience on the point. That's the joy of this hobby: Getting to happy listening.
@effischer Are you saying you adjust the vta on every single lp you play? If so you must be doing that until you like the sound correct? If so is that not exactly what the op has been doing to set it up originally? I know there are variances in record thickness but adjusting for every single record played sounds just a little obsessive to me and for myself would tend to spoil the experience of just sitting and listening to the music (well for 20 or so minutes at a time anyways...lol) No criticism at all but it does sound like your method of adjusting "on the fly" for the sound is the same as the ops initial setting, which has been somewhat criticized by others here. I set once with a medium weight record and leave, I hardly have any 180gm records as most of those are remasters or modern issues which just do not have the same appeal to my tastes again imho only!
Really, just talk to Peter. He is an audiophile, he uses VPI tables, that's his cartridge - he should know how to proceed further. Might save you a lot of time and effort. I think, VTA and anti-skate should always be set by ear with setting VTA first. Take your worst sounding record with vocal and see if you can improve it. I also set VTF by ear, within factory specifications, I know where low and high points are on my arm with my cartridge. Funny activity is to find a compromise.
I'm not surprised that you found adjusting VTA made a noticeable difference that brought you closer to your goal. IME, it's a super important adjustment; possibly the most important. Personally, I will only use tonearms with VTA adjustment on-the-fly capability. I tweak it for every LP I play with superb results.
That said, I still feel a cartridge that's a closer match to the preamp phono sections would be the way to go. At a $2K potential budget for a phono stage, you can get a truly outstanding cart that matches either the MC or MM gain on the C100 (a high end rig by any measure). Without another box between you and the music, BTW.
Even better would be a second hand Graham or Micro Seiki arm with VTA OTF and any one of a dozen <$1K LOMC or high end MM cartridges to mount on it at the same $2K overall. That approach kills 2 birds with 2 stones (so to speak), and gives you a more flexible platform for the future. I also live in the sticks, and that is a key consideration for me.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Keep us posted and happy listening!
audioman- being in a HI-FI deprived area (rural Okla.) I would have to gone to Dallas, Houston, Denver you get the picture, just to check out any HI-FI stores (unless you count BestBuy). So I bought something that I had heard in the past that sounded good. Now I did go to RMAF in 2017 to hear the Raidho speakers (XT-2 and D-1.2). Wish it was like the 70's with a audio store on every other corner (I lived in Tulsa most of my life). Maybe one of these days I can change it up a bit? Plus all these are used so I didn't pay full price even though it still was a lot of money for me.
Your speakers too can clash with your amp,preamp the McIntosh are decent but a Pass Labs 250.8 would destroy it as well as Ampzilla ,and ambrosia Amp,preamp little kniwn gems from late great Jim Borgiano. Nelson Pass New 250.8 and many others are far more refined. i sold Macintosh nice Looking and dependable, but not the last word in resolution. For Cd McIntosh for not their Forte. look up the Lascala, Tube dac, or a Great Lampizator dac , or manygreat players . Rule of thumb don’t buy everything from one company ,no one makes great everything unless you have $$. Gryphon .comes to mind , Goldman, great Swiss company not too expensive Ensemble. Even cables are system dependent . Your system is good just a few things can be bettered for similar money’s that we’re spent. Just speaking the truth .having owned a store .
... the alignment itself didn't take 2 1/2 hrs but making adjustments to
the vta is a change an listen to see if it is better or worse then doing
that over an over until you find what you feel is the best ...
It sounds like you're relying on intuition and feeling here. While I think listening is a critical part of phono cartridge setup, you're chasing your tail if you don't start with measurements, imo. For VTA, that means using a VTA alignment gauge. For overhang and tangency it means using a mirrored alignment gauge that aligns the actual cantilever, rather than the cartridge body. There are so many variables in phono cartridge setup that if you rely on crude tools and listening alone, achieving proper alignment is very much a hit-or-miss proposition. And while it's difficult to diagnose a problem such as yours remotely, it sure sounds like a setup problem to me.
...maybe I don't have the PT-6 it might be a PT-5 because there is no dial
to adjust vta only a set screw to tighten after manually raising or
lower the tone arm by feel, I wish there was a calibrated dial it would
have been so much easier.
Note though that my post referred to the dial for setting VTF (i.e., tracking force), not VTA.
cleeds - the alignment itself didn't take 2 1/2 hrs but making adjustments to the vta is a change an listen to see if it is better or worse then doing that over an over until you find what you feel is the best . almarg - maybe I don't have the PT-6 it might be a PT-5 because there is no dial to adjust vta only a set screw to tighten after manually raising or lower the tone arm by feel, I wish there was a calibrated dial it would have been so much easier. I though it was the PT-6 because of some other differences in the vinylengine.com library to the PT-5. The overhang is 18mm as it is for a 9" tone arm which is what the ProJect shows it to be also. The mirror on the Pro-Ject is for adjusting azimuth. Your method of setting anti-skate sounds similar to what I stated except you use cantilever deflection instead to tonearm drift. Your way may be more accurate so it's something I can try.
almarg in checking the anti-skate (AQ PT-6) my understanding may be off but I thought you adjusted it to where the tone arm moved backwards then adjusted back toward no forward or backward movement? At present it is set at .5 so that raising and lowering it doesn’t move in or out.
First, I took a look at the manual for the AQ PT-6 tonearm, at vinylengine.com, and if I understand your response correctly you are **correctly** ignoring the instructions it provides about setting anti-skating. It states that the anti-skating dial should be set to the same number as the VTF dial, which is a statement I’ve seen in the instructions for a number of tonearms in the past but which results in a ridiculously excessive amount of anti-skating force IMO.
In any event, following is the procedure I use and recommend for setting anti-skating, at least in the case of cartridges having medium to high compliance. (I don’t have significant experience with low compliance cartridges, and this procedure may be less useful in those cases since cantilever deflection will probably have less sensitivity to variation of anti-skating force):
1)Observe the cartridge from the front while it is in the groove of a low volume passage of a rotating record, and positioned somewhere in the middle of the record.
2)Adjust anti-skating until deflection of the cantilever to one side (left or right) becomes barely perceptible, relative to its position when the stylus is lifted off of the record. Note the setting.
3)Adjust anti-skating until deflection of the cantilever to the other side (left or right) becomes barely perceptible, relative to its position when the stylus is lifted off of the record. Note the setting.
4)Set anti-skating to the mid-point between those settings.
5)Verify that no perceptible left or right deflection of the cantilever occurs near the beginning and near the end of the record.
I just finished a 2 1/2 hr re-alingment of the cart.
Unless you are working with a microscope, an alignment should not take two hours or more. How did you perform the alignment? Did you align the cartridge, or did you align the stylus/cantilever? If the former, it’s extremely likely that your alignment is off, ime. That’s why I recommended a gauge that uses a mirror for overhang and tangency.
I just finished a 2 1/2 hr re-alingment of the cart. and did make a few changes to overhang (maybe 1 mm less) addressed azimuth and played with the vta (moving up and down to find the best sound which came when I raised it till the voice of Eric Clapton became sharp then dropped it down till it sounded normal, best I could do?) lewm I switched both speaker cables which tended to muddy up the mids imho. almarg in checking the anti-skate (AQ PT-6) my understanding may be off but I thought you adjusted it to where the tone arm moved backwards then adjusted back toward no forward or backward movement? At present it is set at .5 so that raising and lowering it doesn't move in or out. Now all the adjustments I have made have made a difference in the vocals of most records but some seem beyond help. I feel that room treatments and maybe a different phono stage may improve it more and that will take more time to address than this tread will stand. But I am still open to more input and will happily do what I can to try anything that might help.
I have the Aida. It never sounded this way even when I didn't have good alignment. I use 40db of gain on a musical surroundings nova phonomena. I have it mounted on a stock VPI Prime.
A possible contributor to the issue which was mentioned by Williewonka and Inna but has not been addressed in the responses by the OP is incorrect anti-skating.
To the OP: When you view the cartridge from the front while it is in the groove of a rotating record, does the cantilever appear to be pointed in the same direction (nominally straight-ahead) as when it is lifted off of the record? Or does it appear to be noticeably deflected to either the left or the right, relative to its position when it is lifted off of the record? If the latter, anti-skating is not set correctly IMO.
I'll mention also that I believe the relatively high compliance of the Aida (in both of its versions) will result in that test being a more sensitive indicator of anti-skating accuracy than in the case of many other cartridges, especially the low compliance low output moving coil cartridges that are used by many of the others participating here.
Just to clarify, what I’m talking about is the issue usually called Polarity which is when the system is hooked up correctly and all components are in correct polarity (non-inverting). Then, when a recording that is in reverse Polarity is played on the system the resulting sound will be in reverse Polarity. Conversely, if a recording that is in correct polarity is played on a system that for whatever reason is in inverted Polarity the resulting sound will have inverted Polarity. Incorrectly connected cables on one side of the system is a separate issue.
As i said this is a first thing to do and if you only can buy this Test Record it will be easy http://www.cardas.com/music_frequency_sweep_lp.php to check In Phase / Out of Phase and Polarity (Both channels in positive polarity) / Out Of Polarity (Both channels in reversed or negative polarity Spiral). There is also 13 strikes on a high "B-flat" on a piano Note: The last of the 3 strings are brought into zero-beat, dead-on tuning. Listen for the impact of hammer on string, quickly followed by room reflections mingling with one another, followed by a keener sense of the piano sound itself, as the ring-out time of the string exceeds that of the reverb time of the room.
Yogiboy and Geoffkait, I think you may be inadvertently confusing the OP. There is a difference between issues related to "system phase" (for want of a better word), which I use to refer to the phase in both channels simultaneously, and the issue of having one channel 180 degrees out of phase with the other. The latter wreaks havoc on imaging, for sure. The former has a subtle effect (if the channels are in phase with each other and you then switch the phase in BOTH channels by 180 degrees) heard by some but not by all listeners.
I would say off the top of my bald head that it is impossible to cut an LP such that one channel would be reproduced 180 degrees out of phase with the other. That can happen at any downstream point in the circuit after transduction, but not a fault of the LP, just based on how a stereo signal is encoded on an LP. The cartridge itself could be internally miswired to create such a problem (which I don't think is happening here), but the LP cannot be at fault. (Please, anyone, if I am wrong in this belief, correct me. No problem.) Perhaps you guys are attributing the OP's dilemma to system phase (i.e., the two channels are in phase with each other but phase is opposite to what sounds best), which would be the easiest thing in the world to check; switch the leads from hot to ground and vice-versa on BOTH speakers.
Scooby, You say above that you reversed the speaker cables, per my suggestion here. Did you do it at both speakers or only at one of the two speakers?
Once again I want to thank everyone who has chimed in to help fix this problem! Looks like I will have a lot of work ahead of me to find the real issue. I have already double and triple checked the head shell wiring to verify that they are correct (they are), so on to re-alignment, overhang, vta,etc. before investing in a separate phono stage. I did try reversing the speaker cables just as an experiment (didn't help). Hopefully one of these suggestions will be the one that works!
Speaking of recordings being out of phase/polarity, at least 50% of CDs are out of polarity, you know, just by blind luck - there is no Standard for Polarity - and perhaps as much as 92%, if George Louis, the Polarity Pundit, is correct in his logic. Which begs the question, shouldn’t our systems be placed Out of Absolute Polarity for best overall performance? 😳
I heard that Soundsmith cartridges are capricious, require very ( too ) precise alignment, VTA and anti-skate to sound right. Peter is a perfectionist of a sort. I suggest you talk to him. Each record has different thickness, that cartridge might not like it. Play with VTA and anti-skate first.
As an additional idea, I would suggest calling to McIntosh to find out what's the best solution on using your cartridge. It also seems to me that you should not have these problems regardless of how far you underdriving your input and they can probably test it on their equipment. I used .5mV Shelter cartridge on my Musical Fidelity V-LPS MM phonostage and was able to bring volume. Vocals were OK and balanced every record played.
You have phase cancellations that are likely cause by a misaligned catridge. I too have had this happen and proper ailgnment totally solved the problem. Be aware that not all protractors work properly. I was using a dB and found that it was 2-3 mm too far forward on overhang. Once that problem was solved everything came into sharp focus.
I had this happen just recently. I changed amplifiers from Unison S6 to an Allnic T1500. I really love the Allnic but at times it would seem to emphasize sibilants. Swapped in some TEO liquid metal and sibilants got really bad. As the cables broke in sibilants got far better but vocals are recessed behind the instruments on some recordings. This did even out somewhat as things broke in but does remain. Tubes, cables, cartridge.... synergy. ..., or a more accurate presentation of the recording.
Just to complete the list of suggestions, so that every possible nook and cranny of LP playing has been covered, try playing with VTA/SRA by raising or lowering the tonearm pivot a tiny bit. But like I wrote up above, I really think you are hearing a characteristic that may be inherent to this particular cartridge, albeit you probably can change the soundstaging or tonal balance or whatever you want to call this problem at least a bit by making very small changes here and there. Good luck.
I had this very same problem with my system after changing cartridges. After a week of pulling out my hair I found that the dip switches on my Jolida were set wrong. With the switches in the back they are hard to see and I missed 2 of the switches. I reset the switches and everything returned to normal. Wish you luck but I suspect that something in your phono stage isn't set to work with your cart. Good luck Greg
No, because cd sound fine does not mean that all is in phase. You simple may have the cartridge pins connection on one side reversed. I would make sure this is correct. Double, triple check your cartridge connections.
The connections on s should be as such
Red White Green Blue
when looking from the front of the cartridge/table to the back.
I also suggest a different cartridge; I should think a LOMC would be the way to go, but that's my preference. Your preamp is a very nice rig.
Alignment is the other critical issue as noted above. The Pro-Ject system works well but as you said, one really must be patient with it and double-check everything. The one I have (Strobe-It) is quite a bit thicker than the average record. You don't say which arm or specific tool you have, so you'll want to see where your VTA is both on vinyl and the alignment tool to make sure that isn't an issue as well.
Cleeds- the Pro-ject does use a mirror as part of the alignment process.hdm that sounds more likely as czarivey stated it must be a mismatch between cart.and phono stage of the C-100 as nothing else has had any real effect on the problem. Moving to a fairly high end system has shone me that even albums are recorded at different volume levels as are CDs and that the ones that are recorded at those lower levels seem to be the ones that have more of those issues. I want to thank everyone who has chimed in to help and don't stop if you have any other ideas. It may take awhile to find a new phono stage ( under $2000 ) suggestions will be acepted and looked at
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