why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable

@willemj - with an attitude like that you will never advance in this hobby. Remember the Little Engine that Could? I think I can, I think I can, I think I can! 🚂 Toot, toot!

However, five times 0% is still 0%.

Hey, ain’t nothin’ wrong with being obsessed with good sound. Let’s take a hypothetical case, shall we? OK, now I’m not expecting anyone to believe there can be 100% improvement to sound quality with only one tweak. Even though I personally have experienced that one more than one occasion. But to avoided putting anyone off too much or possibly causing a brain aneurysm in any die hard Skeptics let’s take it a little slower. Suppose you have five tweaks and your system is not all messed up and can actually hear the effects of all five tweaks. For the purposes of argument let’s say the five tweaks are 2 Blue Fuses, the new Graphene Contact Enhancer (applied to only interconnects and the Blue Fuses), a Green Pen for coloring the outer edge of CDs and finally, a spring based isolation system for speakers. OK, that’s five.

Then as each tweak is applied, we ascribe a percentage improvement to each tweak. So for each Blue Fuse let’s say, for the purpose of argument that there is a 15% SQ improvement. Not too high, not too low, right? That’s 30% for both fuses together. Next up, the graphene contact enhancer applied to the Blue Fuses and interconnects only. That should be another 30% SQ improvement at least, you know, being a little conservative. That’s a total of 60%.

Next up, the Green Pen. Now normally I’d estimate the Green Pen about 5-10% SQ improvement but since we’ve just improved the SQ by 60% th Green Pen should score higher, being more powerful now that you can hear the effect easier. So let’s say the Green Pen improves SQ by 20%, fair enough? Now we’re up to a total of 80% since we first started. 

Isolating the speakers should produce even greater results since the speaker vibration will not be allowed to migrate to the electonics. So isolating the speakers, especially after we’ve used four tweaks already, should score, what, 30%?

Thus, with five tweaks, conservatively speaking, we’ve managed to improve the sound quality 110%. Pretty good for an afternoon’s work, eh?

We often see this sort of thing, you know, people who are over educated in certain areas but who can’t see the forest for the trees. Since I actually didn’t read any of Mr. Self’s Cable screed what exactly was his reason for saying cables aren’t directional? Or was it some sort of gut feeling?

Goeff said:

Even what’s his name knows what an Appeal to Authority is, which frankly is kind of shocking

"What's his name?"  Geoff....if you cannot remember my handle, please address me as Mister or Sir.

Al is entirely correct in reading my meaning.

@willemj

Good link to a knowledgeable person. However you don’t need any degrees or specialized training to know that “special audio cables” are and always will be a scam.

The reason cables get promoted here over real improvememts is the profit margins are huge and years of effort have gone in to brain washing audiofools to become faithful acolytes. The true benefits of special wires are HUGE in $$$$$ of profit and some self satisfaction from the proud owners - a pity they do absolutely nothing for the audio except what people choose to imagine they can hear.

"But my speakers are invisible and the speaker end of my room is replaced by a three dimensional sound stage with instruments with all harmonics and finger sounds playing them and singers who breath and turn their heads. And all of these have precise locations on stages."

Hmmm....mine sounds like that I I have MonoPrice, free Kimbers and six WireWorld RCA connects I bought for 10 bucks.

I have much more expense in my ICs, PCs, and speaker wires then in my electronics. I have all High Fidelity Cables having gone from their initial CT-1 ($1600 for 1 m.) and up to their Pro ($18,900 for 1 m.). Yes, that is right, almost 12 times as much!! I also had an interconnect of their Elite series. It was better than the Pro, especial its bass, but enough is enough! And the Elite weighs 154 pounds in a 6 inch diameter and 37 inches long! Where would I put these?

So where did this investment in cables get me. I should say that other components including my amp, line stage, phono stage, dac, turntable, music server, and grounding unit, also greatly contributed to my sound. But my speakers are invisible and the speaker end of my room is replaced by a three dimensional sound stage with instruments with all harmonics and finger sounds playing them and singers who breath and turn their heads. And all of these have precise locations on stages.

My only regret is that I am 79 and only now have this music with its realism and thrill. 

@willemj Exactly! That’s why it’s an Appeal to Authority. Anybody can round up some expert somewhere who will support your position, no matter what your position happens to be. See, you guys learn something everyday. Even what’s his name knows what an Appeal to Authority is, which frankly is kind of shocking. 😛 Maybe you can find an Einstein quote. It nice that you admire or worship those who agree with you. 🙄

Definition of an Expert. Someone who use to be a drip under pressure.

Sure, and very good authority it is.

Oops....standby willemj for being chastised for "Appealing to Authority!"

The quotation marks are his, to define the position he wants to argue against. His own view comes with the words Audio signals are AC.....
I am afraid I created some confusion. What I should have writen is:
against the view that cables are directional, Douglas Self answers ' Anyone prepared to believe this nonsense won't be capable of designing amplifiers, so there seems no point in further comment.'

willemj, why are you arguing against your own star witness? You quoted him as stating cables are directional. Did you misquote him or are you just confused? 😳

Mr Self does not need ESP. He has a first class honours degree in engineering from Cambridge University (i.e the top 10% of his year) and then psychoacoustics at Sussex University. For years he worked with audio legend Peter Baxandall and a number of well known electronics manufacturers. He holds a number of patents on electronics design and is the author of a classic book on amplifier design. Geoff I cannot help it if you have never heard of him.
This is what he wrote on the directionality of cables: "Cables are directional, and pass audio better in one direction than the other."
Audio signals are AC. Cables cannot be directional any more than 2 + 2 can equal 5. Anyone prepared to believe this nonsense won't be capable of designing amplifiers, so there seems no point in further comment.

So far ZERO people have ’changed sides’, which I agree with. But I do think the discussion (or argument) has its merits. People who are new to the better audio world, and are not set in their ways, may find the information helpful, but also confusing. Hopefully, this will lead them to trust their ears and not someone else in the buying decision.

Don't drive Elizabeth away!  Hers is one of the all-too-few voices of reason and moderation on this forum.

I’m always in awe of anyone who knows the limits of my perception. Gosh, does that Mr. Self dude have like, ESP or something? I’m guessing a little but here but Mr. Self isn’t on board the Tweak Train, is he? 🚂 Toot, toot!

For those who want more information, from well known electronics engineer Douglas Self: http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm
With quite a bit of bibliography for those keen to enlarge their knowledge.

drjsmd
Cables do matter but they are also the biggest scam in high end audio. I am supposed to believe that it requires $3000 to produce a 1m interconnect with no moving parts? Maybe there are rare materials that require such a cost but there is scant science to back up the exaggerated claims of both the makers of such cables and the rather absurd claims that buyers report hearing.I do love reading the flowery reviews as they are extremely entertaining.

>>>>It would probably be helpful to your argument to post some of the alleged scant science and exaggerated claims of manufacturers and customers with some sort of evidence. Something. Otherwise you really don’t have a leg to stand on. By the way, my advice to you is don’t read any reviews of the $24,000 interconnects as you might risk a brain aneurysm. 🧠

Cables do matter but they are also the biggest scam in high end audio. I am supposed to believe that it requires $3000 to produce a 1m interconnect with no moving parts? Maybe there are rare materials that require such a cost but there is scant science to back up the exaggerated claims of both the makers of such cables and the rather absurd claims that buyers report hearing.I do love reading the flowery reviews as they are extremely entertaining.

Get a good pair of balanced cables from Mogami and be content in the knowledge paying 100x the price will offer little more than a smaller checking account. As a wise philosopher once said-
  "Mundus vult decipi."

We wish to be deceived !

OK, Al, I'll give her a pass on that portion of her post.  Not that I think she is really concerned about my doing that.

Dynaquest, let me re-phrase Elizabeth's statement that I referred to and perhaps that will clarify the interpretation I was attempting to provide in my previous post.

Elizabeth said:

So far ZERO people have ’changed sides’, or been convince about anything, (except too many other people are just freaking idiots).

My interpretation:

So far ZERO participants have changed sides, or been convinced about anything, except that some participants have become convinced that other participants are just freaking idiots.

If that interpretation is correct, obviously she was not "referring to us as 'freakin' idiots,'” as you stated in your response and as CJ1965 implied in his response.

Best regards,
-- Al

bdp24
I haven’t read through this thread, so forgive me if someone has already mentioned that Galen Gareis of Belden Cable has been writing some articles for Copper, PS Audio’s free online magazine. I’m finding them well worth the time it’s taking me to read them.

>>>>See my comments on the Cable Snake Oil Antidote thread.

cj1965 "I have a full bench of spectrum analyzers, signal generators, multi trace scopes, and a very reliable Earthworks mic that I use on a daily basis. Digital technology exploded a lot of myths. Now that it is fairly cheap and accessible, only those who actively choose to bury their heads in the sand will succumb to foolish arguments involving so called "audible improvements" that can't be measured or tested for. My microphone can pick up low frequency grumbling of a truck approaching a quarter mile away and display it on my software recording dashboard about 20 seconds before it's loud enough for me ti audibly detect. I see evidence of this every day and don't needs anyone's "veils have been lifted" hype to tell me if there's a difference. And no neither NASA nor the BBB are necessary. All that's needed is a little common sense and a mind that's open to accept science and the scientific method."

Being that you have such an extensive stable of testing equipment and also the considerable expertise to commit such equipment to the rigors of scientific testing and apply the results to the body of data about audio why don't you share with us the results of that testing? Being that you see "evidence every day" of what you call audio myths this should be an undertaking that will only require of a you a very brief committment of time and energy and it will also form the foundation of proof/ legal action you can take against those you consider to be frauds in the audio industry.

I haven't read through this thread, so forgive me if someone has already mentioned that Galen Gareis of Belden Cable has been writing some articles for Copper, PS Audio's free online magazine. I'm finding them well worth the time it's taking me to read them.

taters starts many discussions for the kick of getting people to argue. He almost never responds to his own posts. Just look at his many, many posts!!! This post was for his own amusement. 

Elizabeth, sorry to disappoint but convincing anyone of anything is not the point of this thread.
We are all trying to help Geoff reach 10,000 posts so he can take a break.
I secretly suspect taters is a secret agent (or at least a lobbyist) for the aftermarket fuse manufacturers with a mission to get audiophiles to stop spending their money on expensive cables so they have more to spend on fancy fuses.  Fuse threads can be found behind doors No$. 149, 175, and 225 across the hall from the True Believers Kool-Aid stand.

Al...forgive me but your post makes little sense to me.  Sorry...know you meant well.

To the two gentlemen who posted just above: I believe that you may have misinterpreted Elizabeth’s post. The way I read it she was simply saying that the only thing any of the thread’s participants have become convinced of during the course of the thread is (in some cases) that some of the other participants are "freaking idiots." That is a fair statement IMO, and is of course very different than if **she** had been alleging that any of the participants are freaking idiots.

Best regards,
-- Al

Elizabeth:  I can tell you are frustrated with this discussion; but I would suggest instead of resorting to referring to us as "freakin' idiots,” you instead, if it pains you so, click on the "unfollow" button on the top right hand corner of this page.  It is such a simple and quick remedy.

@ elizabeth

No, Elizabeth, THANK YOU for adding your $.02 of bloviation. We "freaking idiots" certainly couldn't bloviate very well without your consummate leadership and blithering/bloviating expertise. Most forum rules strongly urge participants to address the issues presented while avoiding personal attacks. I guess that only applies to us "freaking idiots" and not esteemed forum "leaders" like you. Carry on....

Best and Highest Regards

And here on the eight hundred and eightieth day of this discussion we are back to slinging dung. (did it ever stop?)
So far ZERO people have ’changed sides’, or been convince about anything, (except too many other people are just freaking idiots)

I say good luck to the combatants! and may the bloviating continue!

Thank you all for giving me one more way to idle away my life... reading this exciting and amazing thread.

Just trying to keep up with your sarcasm, my friend.  Hang up my spurs?  how original and "pithy."

Oh, brother, another pithy remark. Dude, time to hang up your spurs. 🤠

I'd rather end up my battle running out of ammo than showing up without any to start with.

Anyone who thinks they do is not playing with a full deck, IMH (fairly informed) O.

That’s the same tired argument pseudo skeptics have been usIng for decades. It pretty much means you’ve run out of ammo. 

I’ve said this before somewhere on Audiogon but it applies to this thread…about WHY people buy expensive cable/wire when there is no reason for these “exotic” products to perform better than good quality cables of the proper length and resistance.

Likely the main reason is that this stuff looks really great if/when you can see it. Those proud of these accessories’ visual appeal, have their equipment well spread…giving the viewer opportunity to see how well equipped and connected the audiophile owner’s system is. When systems are referred to as “music reproduction devices” (or other pompous definitions), they are really proud of their stuff. I have no issue with buying anything for the looks as long as you have the honesty to say so. If I bought a Rolex, for example, I would never say I bought because it is such an accurate timepiece. If I put the optional rear wing on my Jag, I’d never try to get you to believe I drive fast enough to need or achieve the downforce. It, to me, just looks neat.

Another reason is that if it looks good and costs a lot, well….it’s gotta be good. A manufacturer can produce a cable of "exotic" design and beautiful appearance for, perhaps, $5 a foot. He can then choose to sell it for $10 per foot or $750 a foot. If it looks good enough, he might decide to market it as exceptionally high-end and sell it for the higher amount knowing that those with a higher disposable income, but no particular knowledge of basic acoustic science, will assume if it is priced at $750 it MUST be better and will, accordingly, sound better. Once the cables are changed out their eyes will widen and their jaws will drop at the amazing increase in sound stage, transparency, texture and openness the new cables provide. And….this actually is science...the field we know as psychology.

I have Kimber Kables going to my B&W’s. I love them because they really look cool. Got them free when I bought the speakers.

There's nothing wrong with choosing high conductivity or high purity copper cable. No one is saying cheap narrow gauge zip cord in long run lengths is a good thing. Again - common sense. Super or oversized cable may help reduce voltage drop and inductance but it increases capacitance. This has been covered by "professionals" ad nauseum.

https://www.quabbin.com/tech-briefs/why-cable-capacitance-important-electronic-applications

https://www.eeweb.com/tools/wire-inductance

Common sense and remarkably in this case too, science, tells us that moderation is the best  and most suitable approach. Regardless, I challenge anyone with $5000 cables to run both a scientific measurement and double blind test to reliably determine if they can improve system performance over cables that have similar resistance and capacitance per foot costing in the vicinity of $2.50 per foot. You don't see these kinds of examinations published because they would reveal what most scientifically oriented people have known since before "audiophiledum" was an accepted hobby. No one (at least I) is advocating for an extreme point of view. Quality cable components that achieve the desired results don't have to cost more than a good used car. Anyone who thinks they do is not playing with a full deck, IMH (fairly informed) O.

Don't believe the naysayers, you do need good quality cable. Believe me its not cheap. For really high end systems you might even need to spend up to $10 a metre.

So sayeth the man who never says anything unless it’s some stalking behavior thing.

Forgive Geoff...when faced with serious questions he answers either with a question or sarcasm.  One thing for sure...he will say something.  No offense; that is just the way he is, bless his heart.

Oh, I get. So now I’m the one who’s supposed to do it. 🙄

" I anxiously await your results. I had no idea you were so handy. "

I'm no different from any other college educated "joe shmo". You too can buy an Intel 7 based laptop with 4gb of RAM, buy a decent calibrated mic for $300, some balanced cable, a good pro preamp and power amp with balanced I/O, and download Holm Impulse. You don't have to be a NASA rocket scientist. And you certainly don't have to "BELIEVE" or accept as gospel anything I have to say. That's the beauty of science - anybody can do it - even you. You don't have to go along with what any "high priest" of audiophiledom has to say.

I anxiously await your results. I had no idea you were so handy. Now we’re getting somewhere!

" Someone needs to use the Yellow Pages to find your local consumer protection agency representative. I’m sure he will help you mount a lawsuit against all these scam artists. Bad scam artist! Bad! Let us know how that works out. Also, try getting a hold of NASA Nd see if they have time to do some testing for you. Report back your results." - geoffkait

I don't need anyone to test for me. I have a full bench of spectrum analyzers, signal generators, multi trace scopes, and a very reliable Earthworks mic that I use on a daily basis. Digital technology exploded a lot of myths. Now that it is fairly cheap and accessible, only those who actively choose to bury their heads in the sand will succumb to foolish arguments involving so called "audible improvements" that can't be measured or tested for. My microphone can pick up low frequency grumbling of a truck approaching a quarter mile away and display it on my software recording dashboard about 20 seconds before it's loud enough for me ti audibly detect. I see evidence of this every day and don't needs anyone's "veils have been  lifted" hype to tell me if there's a difference. And no neither NASA nor the BBB are necessary. All that's needed is a little common sense and a mind that's open to accept science and the scientific method.

.

Someone needs to use the Yellow Pages to find his local consumer protection agency representative. I’m sure he’ll help you mount a nice big lawsuit against all these scam artists. Bad scam artist! Bad! Let us know how that works out. Also, try getting a hold of NASA to see if they have time to do some testing for you. Report back your results.

There are two very easy ways to debunk outrageous cable, "power conditioner", "isolator", "speaker cable suspender", "special capacitor", and "special resistor" claims:

1) Measure the electrical and acoustical signals with the allegedly improved "product" versus without. It's the year 2018 folks. We now have cheap devices that detect all aspects of sound (phase, pressure, frequency) at a level that is orders of magnitude better than average human hearing. What once cost tens of thousands of dollars in testing equipment can practically be obtained for several hundred with a high performance laptop, high quality calibrated microphone, and audio test suite freeware.

2) Research the backgrounds of the individuals who own and run the companies that are peddling "special resistors", "speaker cable suspenders" and the like. I've been observing this scam for nearly 4 decades and every single "manufacturer" of said products I've looked into is run by con artists and fast talking salesmen/women.  Just like there are tons of con artists peddling miracle health cures, there are and unfortunately probably always will be con artists selling magic cables and capacitors that some how fix everything that is wrong with your audiofool system.