Maybe fuse lovers should try the same fuses that the experts choose to use when designing their gear? Might save some $$$$s. Make sure the contacts are clean and the fuse is properly installed for best performance. Also of course always make sure the specifications are correct for use in your gear. You might not be able to afford top of the line VAC amps but you could probably squeeze the fuses they use.
Why don't amplifier Companies use high end fuses?
My equipment - Raven Integrated Reflection MK2 tube amp 58wpc. / Lumin A-1 DAC Streamer / Synology NAS / Isotex Aquarius Power Conditioner / Furutech Rhodium Plug / Sonus Faber Amati Homage Tradition speakers.
I have read thousands of comments on upgraded fuses improving the performance of sound. I am very open minded but not sold either way. So, the question I have is....if fuses were so important, than why don't Amplifier companies all install them as OEM equipment? To me, if they are as good as people say, that would provide companies who use them a competitive advantage?
Every High End Audio store I go to in Phoenix have told me it does not make a difference and is a waste of money. For the record, I have fuses purchased at an automotive store for under $10 and I think my sound is awesome. The Company that built my amp tested the Synergistic Fuses and he emphatically said there was no difference.
If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try?
I have read thousands of comments on upgraded fuses improving the performance of sound. I am very open minded but not sold either way. So, the question I have is....if fuses were so important, than why don't Amplifier companies all install them as OEM equipment? To me, if they are as good as people say, that would provide companies who use them a competitive advantage?
Every High End Audio store I go to in Phoenix have told me it does not make a difference and is a waste of money. For the record, I have fuses purchased at an automotive store for under $10 and I think my sound is awesome. The Company that built my amp tested the Synergistic Fuses and he emphatically said there was no difference.
If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try?
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Maybe it’s just me but it’s a little alarming to watch an amp manufacturer try to explain high end fuses on camera. It’s probably a good thing the guy from NJ who asked him the question didn’t ask him to explain fuse directionality. 😀 Not to mention the guy from NJ probably didn’t install his fuse in the right direction, which would explain why he said his new fuse sounded a little too bright. |
Interesting: http://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/audiophile-fuses/ |
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I've recently changed my mind about Special Fuses…I used to think they were useless and silly "faith based" tweaks, but now I think purchasing those things could be a sign of some sort of insanity so my compassion tendency kicks in (or maybe it's just "Holiday Spirit")…they're still useless and overpriced nonsense, but the purchase and utilization of them could simply be an uncontrollable act for some, and that's OK…if Ted Denney would donate the million bucks or whatever he's making from these things to Faith Based Tweak Compulsion Syndrome (FBTCS or "fubtucks") deprogrammer therapists, it would be a win-win. |
@kosst_amojan I didn't usually like to get involved in your and Geoff's love fests, but your statement about hospital grade outlets is incorrect. From UL: In addition to complying with the general use requirements, hospital grade receptacles are specially designed and are subject to additional requirements of the standards. These include additional grounding reliability, assembly integrity, strength and durability. As you can see, nothing about being explosion proof. All the literature indicates that hospital grade outlets are mostly differentiated from general use outlets by more robust construction and greater clamping force. Carry on. And maybe don't be so quick to accuse Geoff of making stuff up when it seems you are not completely innocent yourself.. |
What’s sad is they, like you, are ignorant of fuses. Obviously. Obsessively circuit oriented. It doesn’t take a weather man to know which way the wind blows. Wake up and smell the coffee! Ooo, getting testy there Geoff, your calling the most influential designers in audio "Ignorant", I don't think it's them, but I'm sure they'd have something to say about you. Cheers George |
OK, let’s get this thread back on track, people. Which is why high end amp manufacturers don’t employ audiophile grade fuses in their amps. The obvious reason is they aren’t aware of aftermarket fuses or ANY issues with fuses, including wire directionality, so why would they? It’s an audiophile thang. And even many audiophiles don’t subscribe to high end fuses, so why would amp manufacturers? Hel-loo? As I’ve opined before, amp manufactures are, generally speaking, obsessively “circuit oriented” and very conservative when it comes to audiophile concepts like fuses, or power cords or vibration control. Another possible reason high end amp manufacturers don’t use high end fuses is they don’t have the inclination or time to keep up with all the developments in audiophile fuses, even if they were aware of them - which they’re not. There is a new development in fuse technology about what, once a year? Plus the manufacturers would have to ascertain the correct fuse direction. That would be the minimum, and they don’t even do that for whatever stock fuse they use. So, most likely they are blissfully unaware. Furthermore, if an amp manufacturer IS cognizant of aftermarket fuses, which he’s probably NOT, he SHOULD be aware of WHY the fuse is IMPORTANT, even CRITICAL, to the sound. Consequently, the minimum effort for an amp manufacturer should be to implement vibration control, RFI/EMI control, magnetic field control to the fuses as a matter of course. “We don’t need tweaks.” - German high end amp manufacturer at CES circa 2000. |
Last thing. Certain parts within a component chassis are very heat sensitive, and require dissipation of that heat ( transistors, resistors, transformers, and some others ). Proceed with caution. I leave these components alone, but will apply around them if given the room for proper heat dissipation. Tubes, I recommend dampers, nothing more. |
One last thing. There are many parts within a component that are temperature sensitive, in other words, get hot ( transistors, resistors, transformers, tubes ), that I encourage caution. I do not apply on these, but if given room and with proper heat dissipation, certainly around them. For tubes, I recommend dampers, and not caulk ( or AVM ). |
If anyone wants to try it, I use Dynaflex 230, window and door sealant, by DAP. It is available in a squeeze tube, but I purchase it in the 10.1 ounce tubes. If you purchase it in these larger tubes, you need a caulk gun, and, need to puncture a seal at the bottom of the tip ( after cutting off the tip itself ). The color does not matter, but I use clear. It comes out white, but becomes clear after it dries. I finished up a Monster Cable power thingy, and, unbelievable ( not my first conditioner ). Another thing. i DO NOT DO THIS ON ANY EQUIPMENT UNDER A MANUFACTURES WARRANY, as it would likely void it. I only dabble in the used market anyway, and, I do it to products I intend to keep. |
There is a relatively new product called Anti Vibration Magic, which works. The painters tape mimics the same effect. A buddy of mine uses black electrical tape ( which comes in many colors ). AVM is quite expensive ( imo ), and is used by a few high end audio manufacturers, and is very popular in the diy community. A long, long time ago, I was one of the 1st ( that I knew of ) that used mortite, under the platters of direct drive tts. At that time, I had a friend who was an engineer with Nakamichi, who told me about a simple and easy tweak, that I have been doing for years ( similar to AVM ). This tweak was to use a non glue, waterproof, silicon sealant, available at your Lowes or HD ( even Walmart ), and with a tooth pick ( or something like it ), apply to areas within a component. Wiring, capacitors, circuit boards and the chassis. Caveat : MUST LET IT DRY. It is all removable, and, can be quite messy. But, incredible improvement. This can be for the same purpose as adding a piece Dynamat ( or similar product ) to the underside of a component lid, to dampen vibrations. Anyone who feels I am looney ( kosst ), I do not care. Never knock it until you try it. MrD |
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A test, for anyone who is interested. Take a 1 1/2 inch piece of painters tape ( I use the blue Scotch 3M 1 inch width size roll ), cut this piece the long way, to get yourself a 1/2 inch wide strip, and apply it on the glass of the fuse, leaving a bit of the glass showing on each end of the fuse, and put the fuse back. Of course, make sure the equipment is off, when you are doing this, clean the ends of the fuse of fingerprints, reinsert the fuse, and listen. Keep in mind, the equipment needs to warm up ( restabilize ). Do 1 fuse at a time. Can do this on any fuse. Let me know what you hear ? And yes, I am a tweaker. |
From a quick scan of military fuses it appears anyone can buy them from at least two sources, our old friends Littelfuse and Bussmann. I think the problem for audiophiles - aside from the obvious one, what they sound like - is that they are apparently all super fast blow fuses. If I’m not mistaken almost all aftermarket audiophile fuses are slow blow. A good aftermarket fuse is slow blow or very long time lag, in basic design. IIRC, it is SOC that came up with the best time lag element design? To this day, Japanese audio gear comes equipped with SOC brand fuses, and I opened up a 1973-4 manufactured Yamaha CR-1000 receiver the other day, and inside of it were original...SOC fuses. That's at least 43-45 years of Japanese audio companies using SOC fuses. There's a reason for that. All that being as it may be, we know that we are probably invalidating our given house insurance when we put the wrong fuse type or value or both...in the given gear, just because it sounds better (to us). (I don't play that game, personally, I use my own fuse designs) |
@geoffkait God... You just make things up all the time. The special thing about hospital grade outlets has nothing to do with the grip force. The unique feature of hospital outlets is that they are explosion-proof GFI outlets. You can't have sparking interrupt circuits in the presence of oxygen and highly flammable gaseous anesthetics. |
From a quick scan of military fuses it appears anyone can buy them from at least two sources, our old friends Littelfuse and Bussmann. I think the problem for audiophiles - aside from the obvious one, what they sound like - is that they are apparently all super fast blow fuses. If I’m not mistaken almost all aftermarket audiophile fuses are slow blow. |
@geoffkait , I agree with your assumptions regarding fuses and their intended uses, which originally didn't include audio. I think it was just a matter of time before some forward thinking audiophiles took a good, hard look at what's out there and capitalized on it. Good for them. I wish I'd done it. 😖 It will forever be argued that the markup is too high but some these fuses and are seeming to be purpose built for audio applications while some are just rebranding. They're not all alike and some perform better than others so it's threads like this that help to sort things out. All the best, Nonoise |
I didn’t realize the military had so many audiophiles. 😬 Are the highest level fuses directional? Do they have military grade fuse holders, too? I will say I have tried and like very much the MIL SPEC Silver on copper Teflon wire from US Navy surplus. I also used to have power cord from US aircraft communications section. Someone needs to reverse engineer the military fuses obviously. On a sour note, this fuse thing sounds suspiciously like the old Hospital grade wall outlet fiasco. And Hospital grade power cord plug. They’re good, but not as good as audiophile grade wall outlets and plugs. The plugs are designed primarily not to pull out of the socket easily. The audiophile grade outlets *sound* better, and they also have great mechanical contact. Having written specifications for military communications equipment I’d opine the chances are good the MIL SPEC for fuses specifies reliability and shock resistance, things of that nature, but not sound quality. But Mil Spec tubes sound great! Final answer. |
Sometimes it's better to go out with a whimper than a bang, to do go gently into that good night. I just got off the phone with a wonderful gent from The Cable Co. and he spoke of how there are 3 different levels of fuses out there. They mostly come from Germany and the most basic, throw away fuses are used in mass market products, including audio gear. They vary widely in value despite the ratings which is why they don't blow when they should. The mid level fuses are the ones being used and marketed by the audio companies (PADIS, SR, AH, HiFi, etc.) which have much tighter tolerances, which is why they blow when they should. Imagine all the gear out there drawing more current than they should due to the poor tolerances of the standard fuses they come with. It gives me the shudders. Now imagine if all the gear out there were designed with at least a mid level fuse instead of one that doesn't perform as intended. Big pause there as well. All discussions of sonics aside, I want to have a fuse that blows when it should and not allow higher levels of current than the design calls for. Those who have argued that standard fuses are good enough need to reevaluate their positions if their gear is important to them. Going up a value or two with a mid level fuse can be considered pushing it but having a fuse allow it on a continual basis while deluding one into thinking it's not is not kosher. The highest grade fuses are for vital computer, defense and medical applications. I'd love to get my hands on those but they are unavailable to folk like us. Like the gent from The Cable Co. told me, just try them for yourselves and if you don't like them, return them. All the best, Nonoise |
Entertaining reading guys! Lots of snarky repartee. Both Kosst and Geoff might want to watch "Morning Joe" on MSNBC with the sound off. You've never seen snarky until you've watched Mika Brzezinski's face and the impact of her visual condescension. Have fun! Kosst - Do you really believe that all the subjective descriptors mentioned in Geoff's earlier post are quantifiable with measurable data?? |