If ya don’t know I ain’t goin’ to tell ya. It’s for me to know and you to find out.
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Uh, are you SURE you’re in the right thread?
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OK, let’s get this thread back on track, people. Which is why high end amp manufacturers don’t employ audiophile grade fuses in their amps. The obvious reason is they aren’t aware of aftermarket fuses or ANY issues with fuses, including wire directionality, so why would they? It’s an audiophile thang. And even many audiophiles don’t subscribe to high end fuses, so why would amp manufacturers? Hel-loo? As I’ve opined before, amp manufactures are, generally speaking, obsessively “circuit oriented” and very conservative when it comes to audiophile concepts like fuses, or power cords or vibration control. Another possible reason high end amp manufacturers don’t use high end fuses is they don’t have the inclination or time to keep up with all the developments in audiophile fuses, even if they were aware of them - which they’re not. There is a new development in fuse technology about what, once a year? Plus the manufacturers would have to ascertain the correct fuse direction. That would be the minimum, and they don’t even do that for whatever stock fuse they use. So, most likely they are blissfully unaware.
Furthermore, if an amp manufacturer IS cognizant of aftermarket fuses, which he’s probably NOT, he SHOULD be aware of WHY the fuse is IMPORTANT, even CRITICAL, to the sound. Consequently, the minimum effort for an amp manufacturer should be to implement vibration control, RFI/EMI control, magnetic field control to the fuses as a matter of course.
“We don’t need tweaks.” - German high end amp manufacturer at CES circa 2000.
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What’s sad is they, like you, are ignorant of fuses. Obviously. Obsessively circuit oriented. It doesn’t take a weather man to know which way the wind blows. Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️
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Chances are good you just experienced another DMT flashback. You’re up awfully late for a school night, young man.
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Maybe it’s just me but it’s a little alarming to watch an amp manufacturer try to explain high end fuses on camera. It’s probably a good thing the guy from NJ who asked him the question didn’t ask him to explain fuse directionality. 😀 Not to mention the guy from NJ probably didn’t install his fuse in the right direction, which would explain why he said his new fuse sounded a little too bright.
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Mapman
Maybe fuse lovers should try the same fuses that the experts choose to use when designing their gear?
>>>>>Huh? That’s kind of the whole point of this thread. Most high end amp manufacturers do not (rpt not) use aftermarket fuses. Nor are they even aware of them. Nor are they even aware of wire directionality. Nor are most audiophiles. Hel-loo! On the other hand, it’s a free country. You are free to ignore it, you are free to use aftermarket fuses, you are free to use circuit breakers, you are even free to bypass the fuses. You are even free to change the fuse direction or to not change it. I bypassed the fuse on my Super Modded Oppo. Was that wrong? 🙄
definition of an Expert: Some guy in a cheap suit 50 miles from home.
another definition of Expert: Someone who use to be a drip under pressure.
I Bypassed the Fuse in my Hot Rod Oppo and Lived to tell About it.
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Ahem, sorry, there was no explanation. He said he didn’t know why they worked. If a manufacturer doesn’t know how they work how can he possibly design one for his product? Hel-loo! What he actually said was he uses circuit breakers, not fuses. He was very brave to make the video. 🙄
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Exactly! No high end amplifier companies use high end fuses. That’s what this thread is all about. I hate to judge too harshly or too quickly but could it be because they’re too cheap to use aftermarket fuses?
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What is even more astonishing is that he did not immediately start using those German HiFi Tuning fuses in his own amps. I mean, what do you have to do, hit someone over the head? The name of which, HiFi Tuning, he could not even remember in the video. Give me a break! Note: HiFi Tuning fuses are not (rpt not) particularly expensive, you know, as far as aftermarket fuses go. What are they going for these days, 20 bucks? Whatever.
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Please note I didn’t say he wasn’t a good guy. But he said he has no idea how these fancy fuses work. I’m not the one saying it, he is. So, how can he design a fuse? Doesn’t make sense. As I said previously, he should have just sprung for the HiFi Tuning fuses and be done with it. They were the ones that set him back on his heels, for crying out loud. They were the ones that he described as astonishing. He won’t do better than that. Hel-loo! By his own admisssion, unless he was keeping it under his vest, he doesn’t know why aftermarket fuses sound so good.
It’s not clear that circuit breakers are superior to the new wave of audiophile fuses, either. Although they are probably better than ordinary stock fuses.
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Mapman, sadly, the mildly interesting theory of the flakey fuse holder was debunked. Didn’t you get the memo? 😳 Your excellent use of name dropping notwithstanding.
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The ONLY way we have of observing reality, of perceiving the world around us, is through the senses. That’s why we have eyes and ears. To see the world and hear what is there. For Early Man hearing was absolutely critical for his survival, what with Sabre Tooth Tigers and other predators lurking about. 🐅 Mathematics would have been unable to save Early Man from tigers and bears. Fortunately, Early Man was endowed with a direction, distance and speed calculator in his head for calculus, integration - for survival. Squirrels, by contrast, are not so endowed. 🐿 That’s why they frequently become roadkill. We can thank evolution for our keen sense of hearing, which is critical for figuring out what works and what doesn’t, and which direction to pursue. Even the direction of fuses. Tee, hee
Music soothes the savage breast. When it’s not music, it’s just irritating.
An an ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - Old audiophile axiom
The emperor has no clothes. - Audiophile axiom
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Frankly, and I certainly have no animosity towards anyone, nor intend any disrespect, but I disregard with prejudice what ANY pseudo skeptic, naysayer or Crusader Rabbit presents as evidence or proof for any controversial tweak, including fuses, fuse directionality, wire directionality, etc. Who cares? Anybody can dream up some bizarre case they think will turn the tide. It’s actually not (rpt not) up for debate. Case closed. Like the mind of Crusader Rabbit. 🐇
The whole idea that rotating the fuse improves the sound, and is therefore the real reason audiophiles hear improvements when flipping fuses, is preposterous on its face, anyway. Because the odds are 50-50 that the sound would be *degraded* by rotating the fuse. Besides, if someone can’t hear the difference in fuses or in fuse direction, I certainly don’t believe they can hear fuse rotation. It doesn’t make sense. Judge Judy says if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. Furthermore, we already know that fuses measure according with the direction they are oriented in. Case closed. If you can’t hear that’s your problem. Better get it checked out.
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Mapman wrote,
”People will think and do what they will and are not likely to change, especially the older folks like me.”
Can I quote you on that? 😀 Next to, “Only quote facts,” yours is my favorite.
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Mapman
They are also not complicated devices and as difficult to understand as some vendors make them. Its reasonable to expect that some portion of the discussion about them is just noise but hey only one way to find out if one actually cares. Personally, I’d focus on making sure my fuse is good quality and in good working order and look pretty much anywhere else (except Machina Dynamica for example) for things that will make clear significant differences in sound quality.
>>>>>I’m giving serious consideration to promoting you to associate shill as you demonstrate that very special skill I’m looking for - pretending to loathe and mock Machina Dynamica yet giving it a shout out at every opportunity. But not too much, otherwise folks will catch onto the scam. 😛 Keep up the good work.
“It’s too late for old folks like me to change.” - Mapman
Vendors don’t make fuses difficult to understand. You do, grasshopper. Look within.
geoff kait
audio insider
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12 Angry Men redux
Juror #10: Don’t give me that. I’m sick and tired of facts! You can twist ’em anyway you like, you know what I mean?
Juror #10: Six to six... I’m telling you, some of you people in here must be out of your minds.
Juror #10: [interrupting] You didn’t prove it at all. What’re you talking about?
What we we have here, folks, is an excellent example of what I like to call the Backfire Effect. Huh?, you ask. The Backfire Effect is a psychological phenomenon produced in the mind when one’s beliefs or long held ideas are challenged or contradicted. What frequently happens is that the more the person is challenged and the more evidence is presented the more tightly he holds on to his beliefs. The Backfire Effect is not exactly the same thing as stubbornness or refusal to admit defeat but is a little more subtle.
Rational wiki
“”What should be evident from the studies on the backfire effect is you can never win an argument online. When you start to pull out facts and figures, hyperlinks and quotes, you are actually making the opponent feel as though they are even more sure of their position than before you started the debate. As they match your fervor, the same thing happens in your skull. The backfire effect pushes both of you deeper into your original beliefs.”
That’s why you will never see a died in the wool naysayer say, “Well, folks, I finally tried such and such and it actually made quite a nice change to the sound. I admit I was wrong.” 😛 They’d rather fight than switch. It’s a scene right out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
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If an amplifier manufacturer can’t explain em who can?
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Almarg wrote,
”Does all of that sound at least somewhat implausible, even though Ralph’s claims are based on actual experiments? It would not be unreasonable to think so, IMO. However, I feel safe in saying that to most of those having an extensive background in electronic design (such as myself) the notion that a fuse would have **inherent** directional characteristics to an audibly significant degree is substantially MORE implausible.”
>>>>>I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears that having a background in electronic design like Ralph and Al actually does not allow them to make informed judgements regarding fuse directionality. You know, in light of the fact that they ARE directional. It appears they are in denial. Oh, well. Whereas my background in physics and materials science does allow ME to make such judgments. We’ve already debunked the infamous fuse holder pseudo argument, gents. Let’s move this thing along, shall we?
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Wow! I think I see what the problem is. Some people are confusing real skepticism, you know the spirit of curiosity and investigation - the backbone of all scientific endeavor - with simply being overly suspicious or even superstitious. I suspect these same people are afraid that cameras can take their souls. 👻 just remember, the only thing you have to fear is fear itself. 😳 |
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pbnaudio
Perhaps because we want the protection a properly designed and manufactured fuse provides, you know the ones by Bussman or Littlefuse (sic) for an example.
>>>>>Wow! Another manufacturer checks in.
“We don’t need any of your stinking tweaks!”
“We want customers to hear the pure sound of our products.”
“We don’t fall for snake oil. Only solid engineering here.”
😛
Idle question: Why not simply improve a “properly designed and manufactured fuse?” Hel-loo!
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kosst_amogan
I’ve made this point before, but I’ll make it again. Anything that can be heard can be measured. I don’t understand why some of you think that there are some characteristics in audio that don’t have a measurement signature, but that isn’t the case. You people attribute qualities to a fuse that most definitely would reveal themselves through a spectrum analyzer. But they don’t. One can only conclude that’s because it makes no difference at all.
>>>>>Excellent example of a Strawman Argument. I.e., logical fallacy. Most who try them hear them. Capish? Actually, fuses DO reveal themselves through a spectrum analyzer. You yourself claim anything that can be heard can be measured. Hel-loo! Same for cables. Fuse and cable directionality shows up on a spectrum analyzer, too. You’re grasping at straws. |
Look, it’s really the same thing as the Dunking Chair. The Dunking Chair was used to find out if the suspected witch really was a witch. 🧙🏻♀️If she died in the Dunking Chair she couldn’t have been a real witch, since a real witch would have been able to save herself. Of course nobody survived the Dunking Chair. There was a hitch. Here we have naysayers and pseudo skeptics who either can’t hear differences between fuses or won’t try, claiming the whole thing’s a fraud. Basically claiming it’s witchcraft. This is why the naysayers’ argument comes down to superstition, just like the witch hunters of Salem, Mass.
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I’m pretty sure it’s just a bad case of audio nervosa. You can get it from obsessive compulsive behaviors such as participation in the Blowtorch thread on DIY a little bit too much. 😡 Take two placebos and see me in the morning.
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Measurable changes? Huh? Spare me! Nobody measures audio feet. Especially not you. But just for grins, how would you measure the difference between carbon fiber feet and ceramic feet? And between ordinary steel springs and cryogenically treated steel springs? The difference between cones points down and cones points up?
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You have two ears and one mouth for a reason, Wolfie. It’s already been explained. You musta missed it when you were jibber jabbing. So, now the explanation has to be from a manufacturer? Not just any old explanation will do for you guys, anymore. You’re SO sophisticated! |
There are actually some completely legitimate reasons that could explain why you didn’t have luck with the new DAC. So I wouldn’t give up quite yet. It’s a lot like aftermarket fuses, or cables or anything, there are reasons why someone might not get the results he was looking for. Hey, look on the bright side. At least the new super duper DAC didn’t make the sound worse. 😛
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Been there, done that! Well, not me personally - especially now that I’m free from the house AC altogether 🕺 - but cryod Hubble outlets, cryod Romex, and cryod circuit breakers, even entire audiophile grade panels, were sold 15 years ago. You could also have had your Romex broken in on the Cable Cooker. Of course, the enterprising audiophile can do all these things himself today. Hel-loo! Speaking of which, anybody cryo his high end fuses? I kinda doubt the manufacturers have the time or inclination.
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kosst_amojan
The reason you can’t measure feet and springs is the same reason you can’t measure the difference a fuse makes. It’s because it makes no difference. Those who claim it does bare the obligation to prove it and so far there’s no proof. It’s just your mind telling you that expensive must sound better so you hear it.
>>>>Wow! Hey! I don’t think I’ve seen anyone make such a uh, bold statement in years. Maybe you should consider changing hobbies. I don’t think this particular hobby suits your temperament or scientific inclination. Didn’t you get the memo? There is no obligation for anyone to prove anything. |
Whoa! What? Did he just say that? Julian Hirsch famously said all amps that measure the same sound about the same. Not different. Hel-loo!
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Of course it should be pointed out Julian Hirsch is the poster boy for people who cannot hear and who rant about measurements. No offense to anyone living or dead. Or undead. 🧟♂️ The reason (of course) is because amps that measure the same actually do not (rpt not) sound the same. Maybe to the average Joe, they do. There are too many variables. You want proof? OK. Take any amp, replace it’s fuse with a high end fuse, and it will sound better than an identical amp but one with the original stock fuse. Unless the person is deaf, naturally. Yet both amps measure exactly the same. You could do the same thing with better capacitors. Or better speaker cables. Follow?
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I like bait. Bait is tasty. Mmmmmm...🐟. By the way you got the story wrong. The Japanese amp was an ultra low THD amp and was compared to a much higher THD tube amp and the tube amp was judged to be much better sounding. But that test had nothing to do with Julian Hirsch, although it’s a good case for the anti measurement crowd. 😀 I am not here to debate either.
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List of banned words and phrases:
Evidence
Directionality
Morphic field
Aftermarket fuse
Clock
Fact
Information field
Explosion
Unconnected to the audio signal
Pseudo skeptic
Quantum
Proof
Crystal
😬
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bigkidz
HA HA HA. Why don’t they use better resistors, capacitors, chokes or transformers, chassis metal thickness, feet, etc. Cost to price ratio? I think those would make bigger improvements than some fuses IMO. Why not just use a copper bar?
Why don’t they? Because they the amp designers are so focused, hyper focused, on circuits they ignore everything else. Besides as I already intimated they can’t hear anyway so what’s the difference? If they could they certainly wouldn’t bolt transformers directly to the chassis or bolt the printed circuit boards directly to the chassis. I know what you're thinking - "But everybody does that!"
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Exactly! Besides from what I can tell audiophiles are very particular about which fuses they want. So it's a lose/lose situation for the manufacturer. Ditto audiophile power cords. Why should audiophiles trust the ears of the manufacturers? Now, if the manufacturer is smart, which he probably isn't, he would use an aftermarket fuse in his amps for the shows. You know, to get a leg up on the competition. |
All the laws of electronics? Georgie, didn’t you get the memo? Laws are meant to be broken. Like a broken record. 😀
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The reason is actually pretty obvious. Amplifier manufacturers are either unaware and oblivious to the development of audiophile fuses or they ignore it, most likely the former. Even though audiophile fuses have been around like forever. Amp manufacturers just never got the memo. Case solved.🕵🏻
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Uh, that can’t be right. No one has ever lost an amp or burned their house down due to an aftermarket fuse. Not in 20 years. Not to mention stock off the shelf fuses like Littelfuse fail as often as aftermarket fuses. Besides, some aftermarket fuses like Isoclean have always been UL approved. Didn’t you get the memo?
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Leave it to Jitter. Leave it to Jitter to try to put a positive spin on id-no-wance.
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In response to the previous post I would point out that the argument that Aftermarket Fuses are too high for manufacturers to use them is a little weak inasmuch as 80% of all Aftermarket Fuses actually cost $50 or less, according to the list of available Aftermarket Fuses on The Cable Company web site. And many Aftermarket Fuses can be bought at lower prices when they go on sale. For example the SR Black fuse, certainly not one of the less expensive fuses, was offered recently at the price of three for the price of two. So, in fact, amp manufacturers can’t really use the cost argument, assuming they even know about aftermarket fuses which, as I’ve already intimated, they probably don’t.
There are really only two possibilities. The high end amp manufacturers are totally in the dark and blissfully unaware, as it were, regarding the whole fuse thing, including directionality, or they can’t hear. I bet they don’t even put the inexpensive stock fuses in the correct direction. At least not on purpose.
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Huh? It’s basic economics. Obviously manufactures don’t want to keep product on the shelf. This is especially true in hard times like uh, now. Especially for esoteric and exotic products, like audiophile fuses, who knows what the lifetime is for many esoteric products? A year? A month? What every small manufacturer wants, hopes for, is a BIG ORDER. If Isoclean received a big order they would find a way to meet it, no doubt about it. It would be worked out in advance. If SR got a BIG ORDER they would find a way to meet it. It wouldn’t happen overnight, obviously. It’s called planning. Plan for the future! Taking the easy way out is not really the best course of action. That's so Mid Fi. Strategic planning is the only way to go for High End results.
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kosst_amojan
What do I use in my Pass F5 clone? Bussmann. They sell them in 6 packs at AutoZone. They work great. They blow very consistently if I fumble with the power switch wrong. $50 for a fuse? I don’t think so!
Good for you! What direction do you put them in? Just curious. Maybe one day you'll be able to afford a real Pass F5. Fingers krosst.
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You have my absolute guarantee I can make fancy fuses faster than a high end manufacturer can crank out amplifiers. |
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bigkidz
Why not just use a copper bar?
Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any funnier.
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wolf_garcia
"Special" fuses have no actual design benefits or any logical explanation anywhere as to how they improve anything (thousands of comments…still no "how or why")...
I guess it’s not true what they say, that if you repeat something often enough eventually it’ll sink in. The advantages of aftermarket fuses over stock fuses have been described ad nauseum all over the place on the various fuse threads right here on Audiogon for the last ten years. It’s not rocket science. Nothing to get uptight about. Nothing to get your panties in a twist about. 👙
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brf
To answer the OP’s question, all one needs to do is read the responses. Over half of audiophiles do not believe that fuses and power cords make a sonic improvement. Since fuses and power cords do not require a modification to the existing equipment, manufactures choose not to include and charge for "upgraded" fuses and PC and lets the end user decide for themselves.
>>>>Nope that can’t be right. Think of the amp as a black box. The primary concern is or should be the sound. The designers are free to get then best sound they are capable of anyway they can. Don’t worry, no one is going to open up the amp and look inside, to check on the fuse, the capacitors, the circuit. It does not (rpt not) matter one iota if audiophiles believe in fuses or power cords, or capacitors or wire directionality or some fancy circuit or another. High end electronics is competitive so once you get past the cosmetics the real issue is the sound. If they don’t try to win best of show 👑 they aren’t really high end, if you know what I mean. As I said before at least twice, the reason most high end amp designers don’t use high end fuses is simply because they’re unware of them. Sadly. 😪 Even the ones who *are* aware of them, you know, like the ones who hang out here, don’t believe in them. You can lead a mule to water but you can't make him drink.🐪
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Why is the sky blue, daddy? It just is, son.
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Full disclosure: my previous system’s World’s Most Modded Oppo 103 employed a copper bypass in lieu of fuse. The Modded Woo Audio Headphone amp with ’42 Tung Sol rectifier tube and two '52 Sylvania Bad Boys (2 Herbies tube dampers each!) employed the Audio Magic Nano fuse, the correct direction determined by listening, no biggie.
These days I eschew fuses altogether. I do not use house AC power and there’s no place for a fuse even if I wanted to use one. No more power cords, no speaker cables and no interconnects and no digital cable. No more big capacitors, no more big honking transformers. No room acoustics issues to suffer. No more teacher’s dirty looks. If thy eye offend three pluck it out! 👁
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It’s possible someone somewhere prefers the stock off the shelf fuse to some aftermarket fuse, though unlikely. It could happen if the aftermarket fuse was a relatively ineffective one. Not all aftermarket fuses are created equal. I could also happen if the stock fuse was accidentally in the correct direction and the aftermarket fuse was inserted in the wrong direction. Even that is rather unlikely. I suspect it’s possible the reverse expectation bias could explain why some audiophiles get bad results. You know, they psych themselves out. 😳 I mean, how would they be able to explain it to the other naysayers? Hel-loo!
There could possibly be a tie if the system used for the test was sub-standard or had errors in it, e.g, out of phase or out of absolute polarity) such that the differences were not audible. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking - but my system is fabulous! Yeah, right. Finally, the hearing of the tester might not be all that he thinks it is. A lot of folks can’t hear anything above 8 kHz, for example, or are not able to pick up on subtle differences. Almost everyone who reported on the various fuse threads over the years has good results. A few reported they couldn’t hear it. C’est la vie as they say in Miami.
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