krosst_emoji, I posted them already. Snooze you lose, cowboy. 💤
Why don't amplifier Companies use high end fuses?
My equipment - Raven Integrated Reflection MK2 tube amp 58wpc. / Lumin A-1 DAC Streamer / Synology NAS / Isotex Aquarius Power Conditioner / Furutech Rhodium Plug / Sonus Faber Amati Homage Tradition speakers.
I have read thousands of comments on upgraded fuses improving the performance of sound. I am very open minded but not sold either way. So, the question I have is....if fuses were so important, than why don't Amplifier companies all install them as OEM equipment? To me, if they are as good as people say, that would provide companies who use them a competitive advantage?
Every High End Audio store I go to in Phoenix have told me it does not make a difference and is a waste of money. For the record, I have fuses purchased at an automotive store for under $10 and I think my sound is awesome. The Company that built my amp tested the Synergistic Fuses and he emphatically said there was no difference.
If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try?
I have read thousands of comments on upgraded fuses improving the performance of sound. I am very open minded but not sold either way. So, the question I have is....if fuses were so important, than why don't Amplifier companies all install them as OEM equipment? To me, if they are as good as people say, that would provide companies who use them a competitive advantage?
Every High End Audio store I go to in Phoenix have told me it does not make a difference and is a waste of money. For the record, I have fuses purchased at an automotive store for under $10 and I think my sound is awesome. The Company that built my amp tested the Synergistic Fuses and he emphatically said there was no difference.
If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try?
440 responses Add your response
It just dawned on me that the OP's going to swap out a fuse in his amp and my mentioning of the 2-3db difference was after replacing the 4 fuses in my SACD player. It was just out of boredom that I reversed them and got the results. It was in the heat of this "discussion" that @georgehifi stated his doubt about a difference in direction making that much difference with a mains fuse. Just wanted to clear that up lest another can 'o worms opens when the OP reports back. When I changed the fuse in my integrated, it went in in the correct direction. The sound improved so there was no need to reverse it. All the best, Nonoise |
It might seem harsh to say, but I am beginning to believe aftermarket fuses are not for everyone. The more feelings of angst and intrepidation that arise in the mind of the curious audiophile lower the probability that the whole enterprise will have a positive outcome. Or maybe it’s just a feeling I get on the back of my neck. 😳 All the expressions of regret and suspicion and skepticism don’t help change my premonition or precognition. 😀It's a little too much sometimes like a shaggy dog story. 🐩 |
That that would be good for me because I can't keep up with all of your emails. I think earlier in the discussion someone mentioned all this discussion for a $25 fuse for my $ 9000 amp. Lol. When I receive the new fuse I will let you know my opinion on sound. Until then maybe we can go on a cease fire for this topic. Thx |
By the way, Jitter. When I used the word schizophrenia in a post recently it was after some very bad, ill tempered person who shall remain nameless called me a schizophrenic, not in jest. I (on the other hand) was joking, when I used the word, since my little ditty - that apparently went over your head, Jitter - was a twist of the famous Bill Murray line from the romantic comedy or whatever, What About Bob? "Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I." 😀😀 |
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Since the history of mankind, starting with the pictures on the walls of the caves, the hieroglyphics of the ancient Egyptians, only 10 people have been concerned with the directionality of wire. This would be geoff and two other people. Most won't see the humor of me working in that Geoff has a penchant for calling others schizophrenic. C'est la vie. In any case, I have admired Geoff for being the Johnny Appleseed of directionality, actually, kind of a Davey Crocket when you think about it. Let's just say it, going where no man has gone before. |
@geoffkait - I totally understand and agree. I have read other posts in other threads from this particular user and I am constantly asking myself "what the @#$#$ is he talking about?!?!". Hence my assumption that this is just a troll looking to incite argument - trying to find any sort of technical hole in someone’s comments to dig into and expand. I invite all others just to politely ignore these and not chase down a rabbit hole after any sort of convoluted and confusing theory -- without personally attacking any character of any user. |
That’s weird. I didn’t even mention quantum mechanics. Yet kroost_emoji has some ridiculous argument involving quantum mechanics. My arguments, today at least, involve physical reality, physics and human perception. Audio forums can be so unpredictable! Please don’t put words in my mouth. Your name dropping is duly noted. confucius say man who argue with himself has captive audience. |
@geoffkait It is widely understood that quantum mechanics has never made a prediction about the nature of reality that has disagreed with observation. Nobody with any familiarity with quantum mechanics or general and special relativity would make the statements you make. If you want good primers on the physics of consciousness and the nature of perception I suggest digging into Evan Harris Walker and Antonio Damasio. |
BINGO! 🎉 But not from guessing, from experience. See the difference? 😀 Of course. Did I ever deny you or anyone else experienced a difference? Never. As far as a universal improvement I am very skeptical. I’ve played with power cords, heard differences, rarely, and never what I would call significant. What I have ’seen’ was in the pre-HDMI days, between 2 different component cables and the resultant picture on a display. Significant, close, noticeable to me. But there are enough variables like different components which is why I did NOT see a difference on another display. But it was always repeatable on the first display. That’s why one has to be careful about generalizing their own experience. |
>>>>I disagree. The weather, time of day, and things you might have done to your system either on purpose or accidentally as well as other variables must be accounted for. There is also break in and warm up to consider. It is certainly not black and white as you suggest. What I meant is if you could hold or control all the variables except the human one, there could be a noticeable change from one day to the next. Sorry, if I was not more clear. But If you know in your own mind it really works, then there is nothing to argue about. But generalizations like ’most’ and ’thousands of people’ means nothing to me without empirical evidence. If highly regarded artists as well as audio and recording engineers were also to support it, I would certainly consider it more seriously. There are scientific studies done that prove differences between reality and perception. It is not philosophical. |
dalebeshansky "I might argue, while agreeing with you in context, that hearing is a ’sensory function’ , perception is what a particular individual experiences. Let’s take the ’fuse’ improvement hypothesis for argument’s sake. Generalizing that those who do not change the fuse, or power cord, are ’missing out’ is a huge assumption. When ’you’ in fact may be the one missing out from what someone else hears using a 50c fuse." >>>>You might convince yourself or some people with that argument but not me. Once you experience it yourself and experience cable directionality yourself there’s no going back. I mean, unless you wish to be in denial. "You can’t get around perception. Without it, our brain would not be able to ’fill in’ small details in a variety of stimuli. Obviously, the condition of our sensory organs is also a player." >>>>>I agree. That’s why I say perception of sound is the same thing as hearing. They are not two different things. And of course the brain is involved with the perception. That’s not exactly news. "There are so many factors related to our acoustic environment, personal physical condition, like an individual’s perception, that changing a fuse is a drop in the proverbial bucket when it comes to hearing an improvement that can be shared. Notice I said, an ’improvement’. I will not argue that there can be a ’difference’, no matter how small, even measurable." >>>>>Once you experience it yourself you will/should change your expectation to account for your new perception, no? Unless you experience it yourself you’re just guessing. "I will go one step further, if the only variable is listening the next day, in the same exact physical environment one would perceive a difference just based on their personal condition, like brain chemistry at that time." >>>>I disagree. The weather, time of day, and things you might have done to your system either on purpose or accidentally as well as other variables must be accounted for. There is also break in and warm up to consider. It is certainly not black and white as you suggest. "IF you want to argue, leaving everything the same except either the fuse or power cord, etc., will also provide a noticeable difference of the same magnitude, then that’s fine." >>>>I’m not saying any such thing. You are. "I can argue about the physical world, but never about perception. If you hear it, and you like it, that’s all that counts. All the rationale and explanation need not take that from you. I know I am not disagreeing with the Flat Earth Society here. Whether it’s an opinion, or a perception, it is always our own." >>>>I’m not talking about personal preference or some vague thing that can be interpreted any old way. I’m taking about something that is physical and that is very noticeable. I’m talking about physical reality, not some philosophical argument about reality or perception. That doesn’t mean some people will not hear it. But most people do hear it. Thousands of people have heard it. That’s the preponderance of the evidence in this case. You can throw away the negative results. They're outliers. Case closed. |
While an amusing anecdote that Conrad Johnson story doesn’t actually mean anything. The same thing can happen for regular stock fuses. It’s because either the amp is not conservatively rated or because the customer makes a mistake. it certainly can’t be true that the AM fuses is always the problem. Of it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. I'm a ten minute walk from Conrad Johnson as we speak. If you like I can over and straighten them out. Have a nice weekend 🌞 |
To the "no one has ever lost an amp comment, my friends at Conrad-Johnson tell me that when an amp comes in for service, aftermarket fuses are the first thing they check. Inevitably, the AM Fuse not responding correctly is the cause of the problem. So... use at your own risk. That said, I have SR Blacks in my C-J amps and liked the difference. The old C-J supplied fuses had been in there for many years so just the contact cleaning process in replacement may have been the difference. And, I only use them for the mains, the other internal fuses, B+ supply, etc I would never change to aftermarket. |
I might argue, while agreeing with you in context, that hearing is a 'sensory function' , perception is what a particular individual experiences. Let's take the 'fuse' improvement hypothesis for argument's sake. Generalizing that those who do not change the fuse, or power cord, are 'missing out' is a huge assumption. When 'you' in fact may be the one missing out from what someone else hears using a 50c fuse. You can't get around perception. Without it, our brain would not be able to 'fill in' small details in a variety of stimuli. Obviously, the condition of our sensory organs is also a player. There are so many factors related to our acoustic environment, personal physical condition, like an individual's perception, that changing a fuse is a drop in the proverbial bucket when it comes to hearing an improvement that can be shared. Notice I said, an 'improvement'. I will not argue that there can be a 'difference', no matter how small, even measurable. I will go one step further, if the only variable is listening the next day, in the same exact physical environment one would perceive a difference just based on their personal condition, like brain chemistry at that time. IF you want to argue, leaving everything the same except either the fuse or power cord, etc., will also provide a noticeable difference of the same magnitude, then that's fine. I can argue about the physical world, but never about perception. If you hear it, and you like it, that's all that counts. All the rationale and explanation need not take that from you. I know I am not disagreeing with the Flat Earth Society here. Whether it's an opinion, or a perception, it is always our own. |
Really??? 2-3db difference in absolute volume because of changing the direction of the mains fuse? I’m stunned and speechless.All you need to do is to try it. That's all anyone who doubts this has to do. Until then, you're just knocking your head against the wall. I get it. People who are deep into this hobby and "know it" inside out, have overlooked something very simple: the fuse. Imagine all the amp builders/designers out there, laboring away at their craft, scratching their heads as to why, despite reading all the manuals, following the schematics, they end up with something that doesn't sound quite right. So they get inventive. More NFB here, less there. More shunts and chokes. Tinker here, tinker there. Change this, change that. And like a child of their own, no one can tell them it can be improved. Then along comes this schome who has a hard time putting a battery in a remote, who swaps out a fuse and all of a sudden, maybe they didn't have to do this, or that, to get better sound. I get it. All the best, Nonoise |
A modest proposal. I propose that hearing and perception are the same thing. There is no real reason to say they are something different. Hearing is a sensory perception just like vision. It's how we perceive realityThis is not to say there cannot be wide variations among even experienced audiophiles regarding hearing ability, experience in listening and so forth. But I think it's wrong to say perception of sound is something other than what we hear as if it's something undefinable or mysterious. Again this is not to say hearing is not complex or even sometimes mysterious. Heaven forbid! And I'm not discounting psychological effects from the whole listening equation, either, things like placebo effects, expectation bias, etc. Nor can we discount listeners' testimony regarding what they hear. It's unfortunate that naysayers frame positive results as some some of delusion. Speaking of reality I also suggest that physics, strictly speaking, is not reality in the sense that physics as a science represents what we know, what we have discovered about physical reality. But physics as a science is incomplete, and continually growing. It would be rather presumptuous to assume something mysterious or puzzling MUST be inexplainable by physics. It's premuptuous to assume directionality of wire, disobeys some physical law or even theory. It may very well disagree with what many people assume is understood by science or physics. From intro to Zen and the art of Debunkery: Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics. As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery. |
crosst_emoji @geoffkait There you go again spouting meaningless platitudes. Nothing in this hobby defies the laws of physics. Plenty of people are skeptical of things that don’t actually exist. I like those people. I get worried when I’m around people hearing things that can’t possibly exist. Calm down, it’s only an expression. But judging from your reaction 😡, an expression that actually has some meaning, you know, inasmuch as naysayers like yourself keep repeating the same mantra: this directionality phenomenon can’t possibly be real, it’s not possible and it disobeys all known laws of physics and electronics. You like people like yourself. 😡 😡 😡 12 Angry Men. 😀 |
Well, as much as I hate to toot my own horn 🎺 I have been saying all along that because all (rpt all) wire is directional, not only are fuses directional but also resistors, capacitors, transformers, and obviously cables and power cords. Also, internal electronics wiring, internal speaker wiring, crossovers including wiring and you guessed it inductors and capacitors. Gee, what about house wiring? Mr. Bedini might have stumbled onto something. 😳 A major discovery in physics, indeed! |
Here is an interesting aside: John Bedini (one of the premier circuit designers) came to believe in the directionality of resistors. He claimed to have invented a method for measuring this property and using it to select resistors for his amplifier circuits! If true, this would qualify as a major discovery in Physics! |
The "sound" of a fuse (piece of wire) is a tricky subject indeed! But first we must define (and agree) what exactly is "sound". I propose that "sound" is our brains' interpretation of pressure waves in our oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere impinging upon our ears (acoustic sensors). From this basic proposition we can then make further inquiries. The old debate going back 50+ years was the "sound" of tubes versus transistors. I propose that neither has a "sound". For either to work they must be used in a circuit (amplifier). And then connected to a wave-pressure generator (speaker). Only this coupling (amp/speaker) produces "sound" (pressure waves). Neither the "circuit/amp" nor the "wave pressure generator/speaker has an INTRINSIC quality called "sound". Only by considering the amp/speaker as a SYSTEM can we make progress in our understanding of the phenomenon called " sound"! END OF PART 1: Next, some of my subjective observations on the controversial subject of fuse (wire) "sound". |
nonoise auxinput Really??? 2-3db difference in absolute volume because of changing the direction of the mains fuse? I’m stunned and speechless. Cheers George |
Yes, it's signed. That means the values don't actually represent 0 to 65,536. The values represent -32768 to +32767. This represents the waveform on both the positive side as well as the negative side the waveform (mid point representing 0 volts). When the 16-bit word is read, DAC knows to output 0 volts DC when the 16-bit data word represents the mid point. However, it is still 65,536 different actual points of voltage. It is not 8 bits positive and 8 bits negative. An 8 bit word would only represent about 256 different steps and that is not nearly enough for audio. I also never said it was not a "A/C" waveform (A/C meaning alternating current). I only said it was not a true "analog waveform". As opposed to a digital waveform, which is usually interpreted to be "square stepped" or "on/off" in most cases. I'm going to politely state the above as known facts for everyone who doesn't know and not respond from a post that I see only as a troll intending to start a flame war. |
Wrong, Auxinput. CD audio signals are signed meaning you get 8 bits positive and 8 negative, at least according to the red book spec. Because it's signed, it's an AC wave form, even if it is a square wave form. @geoffkait There you go again spouting meaningless platitudes. Nothing in this hobby defies the laws of physics. Plenty of people are skeptical of things that don't actually exist. I like those people. I get worried when I'm around people hearing things that can't possibly exist. |
Couple extra comments: My description of how the power supply works is not 100% completely correct. However, it was meant to give a "general idea" to those who don’t know. Any sort of DC in a waveform is not good. The preamp and amplifier will still use "power/watts" to raise the voltage to the correct level and KEEP that voltage level. However, any sort of DC in the waveform means the speaker is NOT moving! Speakers only react to "changes in voltage". So, if there is DC in the waveform (even if it’s in tiny chunks and only makes up 50% of the waveform), then we will NOT hear it. If there is still 50% DC in the waveforms, then the sound will indeed be about 3 db quieter. (essentially, half the power is being used to move the speaker - the other half of the power is used to keep DC at a particular voltage). Also, changing the direction of the fuse could affect how the power supply does the "initial response to draw" from the A/C. |
Thank you @almarg. I was going to comment as I can accept disagreements, but I cannot accept false statement about what I say. That being said, I also have experienced the 2-3db effect when changing fuses or power cords or op amps. I'm going out on a theory here and I'm sure there will be a lot of conjecture to this, but I believe this all has to do with how a particular circuit "slews" in response to the input waveform. This also has mostly to do with digital sources (if we played from an analog tape, we probably wouldn't have this scenario). Waveforms from a DAC chip are always created by the DAC chip sending out flat-line DC at different voltage levels. With a 16-bit CD, we have the ability to define 65,536 different possible voltage levels between the lowest point on a waveform and the highest point. However, the output from the DAC chip is always DC (essentially a square-stepped waveform). If we put a tap on the output of the DAC chip and look at the total waveform, it looks like a true analog waveform to us. However, once you zoom into the waveform very closely, you will still see that it's just square-stepped DC at different levels. You might have to zoom 1000% or more to actually see this. The fight we have with any audio chain based on a DAC is to smooth out this square-stepped waveform so that it resembles a true analog waveform (with no steps). This can be done by applying several/many op amp circuits. The negative feedback capacitor value can affect how this adjusts the waveform as well. Class A circuits are excellent for waveform "smoothing" as they have a very gradual response to the initial input and have more "decay" on the back side of the waveform. When an op amp (or discrete circuit) responds to the square-stepped wave, it will try to "slew" up to proper voltage to generate this on the output. As soon as it starts "slewing" it will draw voltage from the capacitors in a power supply. Because the capacitor are "temporary" storage, the available voltage starts going down. This is where A/C will start to flow in and restore any voltage in the caps. Now, if a circuit responds too fast to the incoming "square-stepped" waveform, then it will try to reproduce that "square-stepped" effect as accurately as possible. Slowing down the "response" to a change in input voltage is where want to go. Different fuses can adjust things one way or the other. For example, using a silver-based fuse can allow very fast and very high conductivity when the op amp circuit tries to draw from the power supply. It will do as least amount of "waveform smoothing " as possible because it can respond and slew very quickly. However, putting in a gold-plated Isoclean fuse can slow down the "initial draw" of current from A/C. It's not the total amount of current we are limiting. It is the "response of the initial draw" (like a water faucet slowly turning on until it get to full output). The Furutech rhodium fuses behave in a different way. They are quicker responding than the gold-plated Isocleans, but not as quick responding as the HI-Fi Tuning silver. This slower response of "initial draw" can cause a more smoothing of the waveforms, causing us to get "louder noise". It's all based on speaker drivers as well. The square stepped waveform (when measure by a scope) can seem to be correct size, but when most of this is very fast slews to the next point where we have an area of straight DC, you won't get the volume that you expect. Since what we hear as based on the speaker moving (i.e. response to "changes" in voltage), if there is any DC in the waveform, we will not hear it. This also can explain why silver elements or op amps with extremely fast slew rates will tend to translate waveforms to be faster than what they really should be. This is all theory based on what I have learned over the years, but I believe it can explain why one fuse will "sound louder" than a different fuse. |
