Hi Leon_Krige (LK)
sorry for the long post.
thanks for that info. very interesting.
Sounds like an intoxicated cartridge that can't walk the fine straight line needed for a linear tracker - a line that can be anywhere on an LP. Improper setup on a linear arm results in a walk that may start ok at the outside grooves but is off at the end. Or its off at the start and ends up on the line on the inner grooves. This is all due to incorrect setup - user error. This is why it is important to do 3 measurements - at the outer grooves, middle and inner grooves. But I've never heard of one when setup properly "swerves very far out on its path"
A cartridge like this if it were "really true" would be of little use to me regardless of its discount; or maybe its just me and the result of having too many beers with the bears this summer. I am just not getting this swerve out part. Never heard of a cartridge exhibiting this kind of behavior. Its true there is no place to hide with a linear tracker. If its out you will know. This is not the case with a pivot arm where from most people I have talked to, only a small percentage can actually hear the two spots on records that their cartridge is actually in the sweetspot; the other times not. I remember this was audible with my dynavector arm in my main room and I believe I discussed this on my virtual page blog. So if someone can't hear it thats good. Of my more recent pivot arms in my rooms I found the Dynavector the most neutral (compared to MTC's) with the JMW12 and FR64s both producing bass bumps (assuming a LF resonance). I also recall in my room 2 requiring two different sub settings with the Quad 57 on full range material. One for the FR64s and one for the DV505.
Here is the culprit
And here is a Colibri thread
Interesting comments from that thread...
The question I have is were the pressing that sounded wonderful and others not happy and edgy cut at the same plant, same way ?
Some info for consideration.
Page. 56 ET2 manual.
Conclusions
1) Not all cartridges will be improved by using them at some angle other than the intended design angle. (The top of the cartridge parallel to the surface of a record)
2) The European record vertical cutting angle standard closely matches the vertical angles present in phono cartridges today. There is a need for a universal record cutting standard which closely matches this.
3) If the measuring vertical tracking angle of a cartridge is high (greater than 22 degrees) its vertical performance will probably be improved by tilting it back (2 or 3 degrees) (front goes up) to match present vertical angles on records.
4)If the measured vertical tracking angle of a cartridge is 18 to 20 degrees. It will probably perform best when its top is mounted parallel to the surface of the record.
5)Some cartridges are very sensitive to small changes in VTA, others are not.
Page 51 - discusses how most records are cut between 16 and 20 degrees. Seems the Colibri from its specs at 22 degrees falls into points 3 and 5 ?
When records are cut differently we can hear this on resolving systems. And we have discussed this here a number of times. When VTA adjustments are made we know its a good thing to have a tonearm that will not any change parameters like VTF and keep things intact. When two audio friends change the VTA on their Kuzma Airline - the VTF changes. this was confirmed. Its physics.
Now lets ask ourselves - what is going to happen when you play with the VTA on a cartridge like the Colibri that is revealing, needs fantastic alignment to start of with; and it needs to keep it there. You need a tonearm that changes no parameters. imo - there is a reason the VTA on the ET2 is patented. Bruce happens to be a good business person.
fwiw - from an alignment (NOT COST) point of view this applies imo to our cracker jack cartridge 420 str as well.
Have a look at its stylus next to its brother and sister
The one on the right - is the top sibling- very revealing - can be a real PITA, if not set up properly or your tonearm, or your tonearm changes parameters when you adjust VTA. It is affected by point 5 imo.
Try this experiment. Get a long permanent marker. two pieces of different height wood and a piece of paper.
Place paper on table, the lower of the two wood pieces on the paper. make a line where it rests on the inside.
Hold the marker loosely in your hand between the thumb and index finger and rest it on the lowest of the pieces of wood.
Bring the marker down slowly so it makes a spot on the paper.
With the outline of the previous wood clearly visible, put the higher wood piece down.
Repeat the exercise and place the marker down again. The marker makes a spot in a different location. It will be closer to your hand and the marker is at different angle as well.
If you could weigh the weight of the marker on the paper, it would be lighter with the higher elevated piece of wood.
How do I know this? Because I tried I tried this test with every pivot arm I have ever owned. You can't defeat physics.
I find it interesting that the only thing I currently own that was made by VanDenHul is the stock factory silver wiring inside my main speakers. I may also have an old ET2 wire loom with his wire.
:^)
LK
My job has taken me to many different fields of work and I have had to interview the folks who make those industries, companies, organizations tick and can't be without if something happened. Stockbrokers were the least generous with their time and very selfish overall about what they do. Like trying to get blood from a stone. Teachers were always very forthcoming with info and also showed a real need to want to give us the best info to help the students.
I am curious to know how well the previous owner mounted the ET2 on your table (especially if you are going to consider mounting a Colibri). Do you get good alignment on the line for the outside, middle and inside grooves. Also how well is the VTA worm gear working. It should be smooth and remain level when raising and lowering. The lever firmness can be adjusted.
You strike me as the type that is going to have a lot of fun learning with the ET2. This means I am probably going to be learning from you too. So I look really look forward to your progress. Pls keep us updated.
I am off to go meet up with some bear friends. Richard if you see this I have decided to wear the bell this year when I run.
Cheers
sorry for the long post.
PS: Not fixed on the Colibri, but it sounded incredible on a friends Dynavector tonearm, despite his warnings that the cantilever angle is not aligned with the cartridge, is difficult to set up, & apparently it swerves very far out on its path playing on linear tracking arms. (from Vusi Khumalo who has posted some well informed threads on this forum)
thanks for that info. very interesting.
Sounds like an intoxicated cartridge that can't walk the fine straight line needed for a linear tracker - a line that can be anywhere on an LP. Improper setup on a linear arm results in a walk that may start ok at the outside grooves but is off at the end. Or its off at the start and ends up on the line on the inner grooves. This is all due to incorrect setup - user error. This is why it is important to do 3 measurements - at the outer grooves, middle and inner grooves. But I've never heard of one when setup properly "swerves very far out on its path"
A cartridge like this if it were "really true" would be of little use to me regardless of its discount; or maybe its just me and the result of having too many beers with the bears this summer. I am just not getting this swerve out part. Never heard of a cartridge exhibiting this kind of behavior. Its true there is no place to hide with a linear tracker. If its out you will know. This is not the case with a pivot arm where from most people I have talked to, only a small percentage can actually hear the two spots on records that their cartridge is actually in the sweetspot; the other times not. I remember this was audible with my dynavector arm in my main room and I believe I discussed this on my virtual page blog. So if someone can't hear it thats good. Of my more recent pivot arms in my rooms I found the Dynavector the most neutral (compared to MTC's) with the JMW12 and FR64s both producing bass bumps (assuming a LF resonance). I also recall in my room 2 requiring two different sub settings with the Quad 57 on full range material. One for the FR64s and one for the DV505.
Here is the culprit
And here is a Colibri thread
Interesting comments from that thread...
and yes, on some pressings wonderful, others it was not happy and edgy.
Some have cantilevers that are not parallel to the body, and they dont have the same height and VTA.
The question I have is were the pressing that sounded wonderful and others not happy and edgy cut at the same plant, same way ?
Some info for consideration.
Page. 56 ET2 manual.
Conclusions
1) Not all cartridges will be improved by using them at some angle other than the intended design angle. (The top of the cartridge parallel to the surface of a record)
2) The European record vertical cutting angle standard closely matches the vertical angles present in phono cartridges today. There is a need for a universal record cutting standard which closely matches this.
3) If the measuring vertical tracking angle of a cartridge is high (greater than 22 degrees) its vertical performance will probably be improved by tilting it back (2 or 3 degrees) (front goes up) to match present vertical angles on records.
4)If the measured vertical tracking angle of a cartridge is 18 to 20 degrees. It will probably perform best when its top is mounted parallel to the surface of the record.
5)Some cartridges are very sensitive to small changes in VTA, others are not.
Page 51 - discusses how most records are cut between 16 and 20 degrees. Seems the Colibri from its specs at 22 degrees falls into points 3 and 5 ?
When records are cut differently we can hear this on resolving systems. And we have discussed this here a number of times. When VTA adjustments are made we know its a good thing to have a tonearm that will not any change parameters like VTF and keep things intact. When two audio friends change the VTA on their Kuzma Airline - the VTF changes. this was confirmed. Its physics.
Now lets ask ourselves - what is going to happen when you play with the VTA on a cartridge like the Colibri that is revealing, needs fantastic alignment to start of with; and it needs to keep it there. You need a tonearm that changes no parameters. imo - there is a reason the VTA on the ET2 is patented. Bruce happens to be a good business person.
fwiw - from an alignment (NOT COST) point of view this applies imo to our cracker jack cartridge 420 str as well.
Have a look at its stylus next to its brother and sister
The one on the right - is the top sibling- very revealing - can be a real PITA, if not set up properly or your tonearm, or your tonearm changes parameters when you adjust VTA. It is affected by point 5 imo.
Try this experiment. Get a long permanent marker. two pieces of different height wood and a piece of paper.
Place paper on table, the lower of the two wood pieces on the paper. make a line where it rests on the inside.
Hold the marker loosely in your hand between the thumb and index finger and rest it on the lowest of the pieces of wood.
Bring the marker down slowly so it makes a spot on the paper.
With the outline of the previous wood clearly visible, put the higher wood piece down.
Repeat the exercise and place the marker down again. The marker makes a spot in a different location. It will be closer to your hand and the marker is at different angle as well.
If you could weigh the weight of the marker on the paper, it would be lighter with the higher elevated piece of wood.
How do I know this? Because I tried I tried this test with every pivot arm I have ever owned. You can't defeat physics.
I find it interesting that the only thing I currently own that was made by VanDenHul is the stock factory silver wiring inside my main speakers. I may also have an old ET2 wire loom with his wire.
I just can't afford a mistake, single dad, university teacher, not a stockbroker!
:^)
LK
My job has taken me to many different fields of work and I have had to interview the folks who make those industries, companies, organizations tick and can't be without if something happened. Stockbrokers were the least generous with their time and very selfish overall about what they do. Like trying to get blood from a stone. Teachers were always very forthcoming with info and also showed a real need to want to give us the best info to help the students.
I am curious to know how well the previous owner mounted the ET2 on your table (especially if you are going to consider mounting a Colibri). Do you get good alignment on the line for the outside, middle and inside grooves. Also how well is the VTA worm gear working. It should be smooth and remain level when raising and lowering. The lever firmness can be adjusted.
You strike me as the type that is going to have a lot of fun learning with the ET2. This means I am probably going to be learning from you too. So I look really look forward to your progress. Pls keep us updated.
I am off to go meet up with some bear friends. Richard if you see this I have decided to wear the bell this year when I run.
Cheers