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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Now I find the article Steen had wrote on inductors?

I believe the vintage is Steel Laminate wrapped in wax paper.

http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/speak/jenson.html

This does have my hopes up though of the oil filled power supply caps. Steen was a fan of oil in the power supply.

I am going to try some Jensen paper tube caps .02uf in the amp in the sizes that Duelund does not make. I have learned enough lessons on this stuff and was glad to hear Steen liked the oil power supply and it is made by Jensen.

I am going to move the inductor up to 10'away from the speaker and see if that helps if it still sounds hard does anyone want to buy a never hooked up inductor?

dgarretson
2,394 posts
 
If you want to try some good NOS oil caps in PS of amp, cheap Russian MBGO from ebay are physically compact in values up to 4uf/400V. Adding such caps in values 1/10-1/100 of paralleled electrolytics should be audible. They can be further bypassed with .1uf or .01uf Russian FT-series teflon. IMO you are wasting your money with new- production caps in PS.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Dgarretson

You might be right (sound wise) but I am unsure on the existing electrolytics. They are old and and this is partly safety. I have heard many horror stories on blowing up electrolytics.

I am very excited about oil power supply.

One thing Duelund caps have done is reveal amazing tone but will show any upstram weakness. The EL84 amp I have is amazing until things get tough. I suspect the power supply to weak and maybe coupling cap.

I am not mad at all about the Indcutor it has made things very clear to me on what an inductor is and what they can do. I have not heard the cheap inductors like Solen. SET over on AudioKarma had compared Solens to North Creek and found North Creek much better. This does not surprise me. Solen from Parts Connexion pics looks like loose wire? I would expect sloppy sound out of that. The North Creek is like a rock and in my opinion sounds hard very great detail and could be a great inductor IF it was wrapped in something like wax paper.

What I always find surprising is that we always assume today's stuff is built better? I could make a Solen myself get a core some ties wrap the wire around the core and voila an inductor. The North Creek is at least baked for hardness. The supposedly antique vintage inductor is 28 (an exact number) pieces of laminated steel in a steel housing. Then they use a cardboard around the steel then wax paper making the whole inductor hard as rock. I could not make that! If one wants to see a cheap inductor my new Linn speakers had a piece of wire wrapped a round Iron core which one could do in 5 minutes tops!

http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/catalog/inductors.html

Here is a pic of a 1968 set of Sony's the owner says sounds good. I am not surprised air core inductors wrapped in wax paper. Hmmmm? Tell me how a new modern Solen could be better? I bet I can guess why there is not wax paper anymore on most inductors? Hmmmm? Frederik even said it takes 1 minute to manufacture some inductors. North Creek longer as at least there is some hardening.

http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=32527&forum=51

I am so glad I have done this experiment. I have said to Frederik the vintage Aluminum foil in oil midrange cap I bet is a good as his which cost $250 for the midrange alone each! My whole parts costs on the $5k Linn speakers (and they are no different than most manufactures) would be $30 or $40 for both speakers.
ait
480 posts
 
By the way, the motor run caps (of which I believe your ASC is a variety) are not really oil caps. They are Polypropylene caps which are bathed in oil inside a metal can for heat dissipation purposes. If you shake the can you can hear the oil slosh around inside. The reason for that construction is that they are designed for applications on electric motors in industrial environments.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Ait

I believe you are right as well. I believe the ones Steen was talking about are these at Jensen?

https://audio.jensencapacitors.com/products/capmetpape/?crumbs

I think polyproplyne would be very good in the power supply. Even as one who does not like them in the signal path poly is very good at doing one of the two things caps do and that is getting out noise. I don't care for what they do to the signal but of course they are not in the signal when in the power supply.

I have been giving more thought to Paul Klipsch's inductor. It is not the standard steel laminate inductor that we see most often but a upside down M. I wonder if metal on the outside is to stop stay magnetic field? In my tweeter circuit the resonant trap is air core wax paper inductor. So he clearly knew of the "benefits" of air core but did not use it? I know most would say for cost reasons (which could be true) but this was not a cheaply made inductor like many of today's? He could have not done a M and no wax paper to save even more money.

In the Klipsch post I copied in Al Klappenberger was shocked at how little distortion the metal core had? He had believed Air to be much better.

Another guy in the post talked about using a large inductor and being able to disconnect the tweeter and only lost 20db of output! That is clearly NOT good. In fact to me that sounds like what is going on. My mids and highs sound rough with new inductor?

Haven't had a chance to check but it was mentioned here before of surprising level of cross talk. Paul K has gone to it seems great effort to stop that.

I am going to do some more tinkering to see what can be done.
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