Counterpoint SA-5000 or First Sound Presence Pre

Mphnkns: I think what you said is pretty much what everybody believes.--Which is the very reason we all do this hobby. Also;I can't imagine a system in which the 5000 will sound more like actual music---unless the FS is broken. I own one /just the meager delux mk2. I did own the 3000 about 12/13 years ago. 'Fit my needs at the time.

I think it is subjective at this point. Unless you have both unit on hand and same time with the right combination, it is hard to give a real good evaluation based on your believe. Also, 5000 is far more superior than 3000 so you can't really draw conclusion base on 3000 because it is a totally different product. One thing for sure, newer products suppose to be better in technology but sonic wise is subjective. I currently own 6 different preamps and 5 different amps and I do find something different and something I like about each one.

5000 is more for more seductive sound. It is known for seductive musical characteristic and not for dynamic or pace or pin point imaging sharpness. The 5000 will make all music sound nice and gentle but not to the point where it become muddy or smear. That's why they choose tube retification in the power supply. It is in the class of its own. In audio, it is either you like it or you prefer something else. There is no real answer for every question about musical preference. If you can affort it, why not own both?

run from counterpoint....unless you are sadistic and enjoy pain.

they are very, very unrelaible. despite the new company and serivce, no one in san diego(local town) will carry the line.

the companies reputation of building unrelaible gear is founded and well documented.

i would go with the first sound, the owner of the company is true gentleman and freely offers time and advice wether the units were bought new or used.

another very nice pre is the pse hl-1. dean makes a great pre and they require only 2 7308/6922 tubes. they are very rare to come by and a signature upgrade is suppose to take the unit to the $8k range class ( i'll let you know when the upgrade is done).

best regards,

mike

Bigkidz-

I do not own a Counterpoint SA-5000 and have never heard one. Ditto with the First Sound.

However, I do own two SA-20 amplifiers. I purchased each one used for about $500.00 and they failed after about 4 years of great sound. I had one repaired and kept enjoying it. The other was recently upgraded and sounds even better.

I also own a Counterpoint 5.1 preamp which I purchased used, played for years, had repaired, and continue to enjoy.

It is fair to say that Counterpoint products have a sound that appeals to many. It is also fair to say that as originally manufactured, some had flaws, some failed, and some have not failed.

You can read about the known issues with virtually every piece of Counterpoint equipment at http://www.altavistaaudio.com. This site is maintained by Michael Elliot, formerly a designer at Counterpoint and current owner of Counterpoint and Alta Vista Audio. The problems with Counterpoint are thoroughly and fully set forth there under "known issues". Also, you will see the solutions to the problems.

I write to address two statements made by Mikesinger that may unfairly and adversely affect your decision making.

First, Mikesinger wrote "they are very, very unrelaible. despite the new company and serivce, no one in san diego(local town) will carry the line."

As a matter of fact, no one carries Counterpoint because it is no longer currently manufactured. No one carries Alta Vista products because Alta Vista only sells direct to the customer.

Mikesinger's implication that dealers don't carry Counterpoint and/or AltaVista products because the products are unreliable is absolutely wrong. Many well regarded producers of high end equipment sell direct to the consumer only. I have never heard, seen, touched or smelled an Alta Vista amplifiers-it is presently beyond my means, and I am happy with my upgraded SA-20. However, at least one reviewer thinks its the cat's meow. There may be more reviews, but I don't read them obsessively.

Next, Mikesinger wrote that the owner of first sound is a "true gentleman and freely offers time and advice wether the units were bought new or used."

If you infer from this statement that Mr. Elliot, the principal in Counterpoint and Alta Vista, does not possess all these attributes and more, you would be misguided.

Mike Elliot answers my e mail on weekdays, weekends and at all hours of the night. He promptly repaired my amplifier and pre-amp when they failed, and I was able to enjoy music playing them in their original configuration.

When I put aside enough money for an upgrade, he took my SA-20 amplifier to a new dimension. The upgrade is more than a modification-it is an extensive rebuild that essentially only leaves the case intact.

So, please do your own primary investigation. I suggest you buy a Counterpoint- you can sell it if you don't like it or even if it breaks.

You would also be well served to search the archives and ask yourself whether any commentators in this thread have an agenda of some sort with respect to Counterpoint and Michael Elliot.

Good luck to you.

Michael

Mike, you should own a SA5000 first then you can speak of reliability. SA5000 is a full function including MM/MC stage. It also use only 2 tubes for line stage.