Counterpoint SA-5000 or First Sound Presence Pre

Bigkidz-

I do not own a Counterpoint SA-5000 and have never heard one. Ditto with the First Sound.

However, I do own two SA-20 amplifiers. I purchased each one used for about $500.00 and they failed after about 4 years of great sound. I had one repaired and kept enjoying it. The other was recently upgraded and sounds even better.

I also own a Counterpoint 5.1 preamp which I purchased used, played for years, had repaired, and continue to enjoy.

It is fair to say that Counterpoint products have a sound that appeals to many. It is also fair to say that as originally manufactured, some had flaws, some failed, and some have not failed.

You can read about the known issues with virtually every piece of Counterpoint equipment at http://www.altavistaaudio.com. This site is maintained by Michael Elliot, formerly a designer at Counterpoint and current owner of Counterpoint and Alta Vista Audio. The problems with Counterpoint are thoroughly and fully set forth there under "known issues". Also, you will see the solutions to the problems.

I write to address two statements made by Mikesinger that may unfairly and adversely affect your decision making.

First, Mikesinger wrote "they are very, very unrelaible. despite the new company and serivce, no one in san diego(local town) will carry the line."

As a matter of fact, no one carries Counterpoint because it is no longer currently manufactured. No one carries Alta Vista products because Alta Vista only sells direct to the customer.

Mikesinger's implication that dealers don't carry Counterpoint and/or AltaVista products because the products are unreliable is absolutely wrong. Many well regarded producers of high end equipment sell direct to the consumer only. I have never heard, seen, touched or smelled an Alta Vista amplifiers-it is presently beyond my means, and I am happy with my upgraded SA-20. However, at least one reviewer thinks its the cat's meow. There may be more reviews, but I don't read them obsessively.

Next, Mikesinger wrote that the owner of first sound is a "true gentleman and freely offers time and advice wether the units were bought new or used."

If you infer from this statement that Mr. Elliot, the principal in Counterpoint and Alta Vista, does not possess all these attributes and more, you would be misguided.

Mike Elliot answers my e mail on weekdays, weekends and at all hours of the night. He promptly repaired my amplifier and pre-amp when they failed, and I was able to enjoy music playing them in their original configuration.

When I put aside enough money for an upgrade, he took my SA-20 amplifier to a new dimension. The upgrade is more than a modification-it is an extensive rebuild that essentially only leaves the case intact.

So, please do your own primary investigation. I suggest you buy a Counterpoint- you can sell it if you don't like it or even if it breaks.

You would also be well served to search the archives and ask yourself whether any commentators in this thread have an agenda of some sort with respect to Counterpoint and Michael Elliot.

Good luck to you.

Michael

Mike, you should own a SA5000 first then you can speak of reliability. SA5000 is a full function including MM/MC stage. It also use only 2 tubes for line stage.

Thanks for setting this straight Mknowles16 and S23chang. I never had any problems with any of my SA5000 preamps. Even if I did, Michael Elliott is there to repair, no big runaway issue for me, he has a good set of ears and knows good sound.

You tell him S23Chang!

just as heads up reguarding counterpoint/ alta vista.

mike elliott went to both shops in san diego with their new amps for them to audition (fact). i would speculate ( which means "in my opinion" the reason alta vista doesnt sell to dealers is because they cant- they have pissed off alot of people. alot of established dealers that had once carried the line will not carry the line again due to previous experience. no one has to get kicked in the groin twice to find out that it hurts.

Japan and the far east has been the biggest customer for counterpoint ( you can confirm this with mike e). i dont know if this is true for alta vista.

Mike Elliott and his wife are very nice people- i handled their printing at precision litho located in vista before the company closed (its to bad they didnt pay their printing bill - i picked up that up for them. they went through a very rough time. they had a beautiful business / manufacturing facility and had lost everything) (fact)

in regards to reliabilty- i dont know how relaible the new gear is but the old gear is unreliable and has a reputation as such on all their own and not my my opinion.

ask any shop that used to carry their gear. i like their pre's- the sa-5000 is still a great pre (i was considering to pick one up for its phono stage- but opted for audible illusions instead) the gear is to unrelaible and costly to be repaired.

back in the early 90's i started the san diego music society ( we meet at stereo ulimited, bruce is a true gentleman). when Von Schweikert was demoing his Continetial speakers(division of counterpoint) with counterpoint gear- both sa-220's went up in smoke. every audiophile laughed about it, it was considered "typical for counterpoint".

the only shop that carried counterpoint was music by the sea (steve mccormack ala mod squad) till it closed. both stereo unlimited and stereo by design stopped carrying the line due to relaiblilty issues(fact).

my personal opinion is the world is waiting for a relaible hybrid amp and pre-amp that is reasonably priced.

that could combine fets and tubes to bring the best strengths of each forward.

the audio research classic series was the first to do this ( the arc ls-2b, classic 60 etc.). counterpoints gear also did it, they were ahead of their time, but the counerpoint designs were unrelaible. if you have one that works and havent had any problems with it, then i would say you are lucky.

with any high preformance equipment- wether car or audio there is maintaince involved. ask any porsche, bmw, ferrrai owner. the same applies to audio. most tube gear will require service....it is a fact. that is the price you pay for performance ( consider a infiniti to a bmw... both are nice but the infinti will be more relaible while the bmw will offer more performance and require more maintiance - that is the "cost of ownership"

the counterpoint is high performance but requires a more repairs than the arc classic series. that is one of the reasons the arc clsssic still commands top dollar. despite its age, the stuff lasts and sounds good. even by todays standards ( i still like the arc classic 60)

i wish someone could introduce a reliable and reasonably priced hybrid to pick up where the arc classic series and counterpoint left off.

hey audio designers/endgineers.... is anyone up to it ?
or is 2 channel considered a dead market ?

my 2 cents...

best regards,

mike