More power for my Duos?

edjlif

I didnot say the duos did not sound very good, I was merely indicating that it has some of the typical traits of horn speakers. One of these there is an overall 'sketchy' feel to its presentation. A lightnesss and speed that is common more or less in many horn designs but probably less so in the Avantgardes. I have played around with the duo set up plenty hence the advice regarding supports to give the musicians more body and warmth.

Ultimately compared to the hyperions their faults become obvious, especially in the region of musicality, clarity, transparency and bass. Read comparisons steve rochlin makes with his reference avantgardes with other speakers, on enjoythemusic especially when he compares it to the Galante rhapsody at a fraction of the price. I have heard the duos and trios in various settings and the sound is characteristic, a lightnesss of touch which takes them away from a truely realistic reproduction.

They were one of the best speakers in the world a few years ago, but I now have evidence that they are being overtaken by several of the price breaking newcomers.Only when directly compared with these in ones own set up can the weaknesses truely become apparent.

There is a German DIY site which tries to address this one failing with the Avantgardes. They inform us that the metallic carriers for the horns can be filled with deflex material and the crossovers upgraded with warmer sounding Jensen Caps. I have not tried these yet, but even if this did improve the sound, the subwoofers still need an awful lot of work to get to sound anywhere near as good as a passive integrated one. Having to use solid state amplification in the actives is certainly degrading in my opinion, and judging by the very poor quality of the supplied cables I would be suspicious about the amount of thought that went into the design of the subwoofer.

In my exprience the difference between amplifiers can be considered minimal when compared with the differences between speakers. Hence the advice to the original author of this thread.

Luke

This may be a dumb question, but if horns are sketchy at reproducing the clarity, transparency and musicality of a recording, then why are they used at every live performance? Or in movie theaters? I'm not asking this as a challenge. I really don't know the answer. I just know that I've not heard any speaker match the immediacy of a horn.
Thanks in advance for the education.

Luke

In a nutshell it sounds like you were saying the Duos don't sound good, which is fine. I don't think they sound lean, in fact they can have as much weight as you want with the controls. Obviously these speakers have their weakness which is the bass and integration. So far I'm not as bothered by it as some. It's the dynamics and the ability to connect to the music as in a live acoustic event that makes the horns awesome. I've not heard a box speaker that can match the horns for dynamics and that is where the energy and excitment comes from. Those Hyperions must be something worth checking out if they can match the Duos for dynamics.

Hi Ejlif and Boa a

Once again may I please reiterate that the duos are excellent speakers, as I have mentioned on each of my two threads I have lived with them for over two years. I was bowlled over by their astonishing dynamics macro and micro,the detail that comes with this and their looks. But I was always well aware of the bass deficiencies,and that does not just mean their integration with the rest of the sound spectrum, but of the individual notes. In order to get a full single note with a start a clearly evident middle bit with the final section that by the rules of physics should tail off (in volume with changing harmonics) unless the bass player decides to turn off the microphone suddenly or suppress the plucked string with the side of his hand. I indeed wanted to get all of this. I told you the wiring used internally and externally with the subwoofers are were very poor, I substtituted them with far higher quality ones, and i squeezed better but not dramatic performance from them.
I finally added two further active rel subwoofers with minimal volume setting and cut off at 22hz. And yes it adddd to the soundstaging (which are not deepest or widest in the world by a significant margin) and solidity of the imaging.

The term sketchy is there to describe that painting a musical event can be drawn with pencil like skeletal outlines or with strong heavy thicker and more colourful brush strokes. I believe both horns do contribute to some sketching leading to a lighter touch to proceedings.

I have owned audio physic avantis with various solid state and valve amps, I was disappointment with them. Prior to these,I ownwed a pair of Harbeth 7ES, classic British company that speialises in the vocal range. The midrange just went on and on and on forever. Bass and treble however were poorly integrated and probably close to sounding average only. No other mega dollar speaker has ever matched the midrange of this speaker in my opinion, and that was a cone design.

Why does one particular show have an unusally large representation of a particular product? My theory on this is purely speculative and in no way is suppossed to accuse any manufacturer or distributer of unfair play. In my opinion this finding may be due to heavy promotion of aunit that happens to be the flavour of the month or year. Why was last years London Hifi show full of AVID turntables, or the year before that Clearaudios. The flavour of the month through initiation by in house chitter chatter or the distributer can help stimulate so much interest that all other dealers know it would be worth using the 'flavour of the month' for their show. But it does not mean it is a bad or poor product, in the case of the duo's a very good product.

All I am now saying is that I do no longer have to put up with its weaknesses, as newer and better speakers are coming out all the time. You should try reading the opinions of the on line magazines.enjoythemusic, positivefeedback and more recently 6moons. These are online hifi magazines requiring no funding, investigating all those products you might never have found out about in the mainstream magazines until they have made a name for themselves on the audio critique circle. You will be amazed at how different every reviewers speaker is. Why does a fair proportion of them use the same product as in the shows????I only know of one reviewer on Hi fi news who uses the duos, and one on stereophile, and only steve roachlin on enjoythe music out of what say 60 reviewers in total. I stand to be corrected on the actual figures as I have not investigated this thoroughly I am only using this as an illustration.Indeed best speaker of all time accolade can go to twenty different models. There are many many high quality speakers each offerring something special there is no one single winner. Unless you read widely and deeply you will never get a full picture of the soundstage its periphery or ceiling! BUT you can compare speakers and find that one may be better overall than another.

Luke

Luke

Luke,

Thanks for the post. Clearly, everyone hears something different. When I heard the AG's, they seemed to paint with a pretty full brush, as opposed to the sketch to which you referred. I've been wanting to hear the Hyperion's, as they certainly garner a lot of positive attention.

Frankly, however, I've just never heard any speaker do dead-on, spine-chilling midrange like a horn. That is, I literally get the chills running down my spine--when the component synergy & placement is right, of course--and I cannot assess the music in advance of actually feeling it. Everything else to this musician's ear sounds massaged. Not inaccurate, necessarily. Rather, it just sounds smoothed over, as if the intention is to make the music more pleasant, or more palatable.

What I am asking in regard to horns & live shows, however, is with respect to actual artist performances. I think you thought I meant audio conventions. I am sitting in front of my 27 yr old horn speakers right now, and it sounds like the vocalist is smacking his lips on my ear lobe. The immediacy and urgency of the sound is physically verifiable, and I'm just wondering if horns are indeed NOT the most accurate at reproducing the music, why then are they used at every live concert and performance? Every concert hall uses them. Every theater. Every comedy store. Why wouldn't they project by another speaker format if it indeed had more accurate presence and dynamics than that of a horn?

What's the difference between home audio and a live performance, if not simply the swapping of a CD player or turntable for an actual person? And why don't we ever see a row of twenty Hyperions (or Wilson's, or Apogee's, or Magnepan's) chained up at the rock arena, or on the stage at Carnegie Hall if they were believed to be a more truthful purveyor of the source?

That is my question. Again, I'm not trying to challenge anyone to a duel. I know what I like, and I respect the listening preferences of others. OK, so I don't quite get Norah Jones. But hey, that aside, can anyone answer this question for me?

Thanks, everyone.
Howard