Stradivari violin

Interesting question. Having some knowledge about both Strads and Guanieri violins, I think that you have to take into account that each of these violins sounds different from another, even those made by the same maker. For example, Joshua Bell recently replaced his Strad with another Strad because the new one, the "Gibson", had a "bigger" sound, which was more conducive to concert performance than chamber music (as an aside, it was very similar to upgrading your components when you think of it, although the cost is a little different!). Similarly, Bobby McDuffie fell in love with his del Gesu after having played dozens of them, searching for the one that best suited his style and taste as an artist. While it's all well and good to generalize (Strads are more tempermental and sweeter than del Gesus, which have more power, are more versatile and are better for filling a large hall, and all of them have a tone that modern violins just can't match), the fact is that unless you're extremely familiar with the sound of a particular Strad or del Gesu, it's unlikely that any recording is going to let you know the instrument being played unless you know the artist or the liner notes tell you. My guess is that the sweetness and tone of a lot of these violins may be lost by the close miking of recordings (it has been said, and I can believe it having heard Bobby's del Gesu up close and on recordings, that no recording of Heifetz ever fully captured the sweetness of the tone he got from his del Gesu), and that fact in addition can mask the fact that a lesser violin does not project into a concert hall with the power of one of these rare violins. So in answer to your question, I agree that without being intimately familiar with the violin in question, it would be difficult to tell what type violin is being played on a music reproduction system, but I would probably place the reason more on the recording process and the fact that all these rare violins sound different than on the playback equipment. By the way, I believe that there is a recording by violinist Elmar (?) Oliviera where he plays a number of rare violins from his collection on one disc, would be interesting to hear that disc to hear the differences in sound among the different violins.

rcprince: your post is wonderfully informative, well-written and perfectly on target. BRAVO! i'm sure pleased you take the time to share your wisdom with us. i hope you'll continue to teach us. -cfb

(From an email to a group I belong to, I realize these are vague references, but they might lead you to something of interest):

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"A few [The Absolute Sound] issues back there was a long article on the project where about thirty Strads and Guarneris were recorded under identical conditions—same player, same mikes same everything. The whole package is expensive but you can buy a sampler for around $25...

Telling the Strads from each other or the Guarneris from each other may require a violinistically trained ear, but if you can’t tell the Strads as a group from the Guarneris as a group, you need either a new audio system or a lot of thought on just what you are listening for and how effectively. It is really obvious, blind or otherwise...

If you don't believe, buy the Bein and Fushi comparison CD(you can order it from them in Chicago). Then you will."
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Good luck and hope this is of interest,

Charlie

Charlie: I think that's the Oliviera disc they're referring to; thanks, I was trying to figure where to get it. Oliviera is a fine violinist, it would probably be worthwhile picking it up, just to hear the differences. I agree that if you hear them side by side under the same conditions you can hear the differences, but given the state of most commercial recordings (which the Oliviera disc is definitely not) and the fact that there may be no clues as to the type of violin used on those recordings, I would think only true violin afficianatos, violinists and dealers would consistently be able to pick out the types of violins being used on them (let alone the actual violin). For example, Bobby McDuffie's recording of the Barber concerto on Telarc was made with his previous violin, while the one he made before that, his recording of Kreisler and similar romantic short pieces (which is a lot of fun, if you haven't heard it), was made with the del Gesu. After he told me, I could hear the difference, although to my relatively untrained ear it could also have been the difference between the different halls and the different styles of music played that I was hearing. In a live concert setting, the differences are much easier to notice, in my experience.

This issue does not apply to violins only, but also to any family of musical instruments or groups of same instruments by the same maker. Yes, it is true as Rcprince points out, that some of the unique nuances of tone and expression that some instruments or groups of instruments by the same maker are lost or at least blurred by the recording process, but there is still plenty of information that is captured to make identification not only possible, but as Danvect points out, quite obvious. These "subtle" differences in timbre, as in the case of Strads vs. Guarnieris, are far more obvious than the differences between say, a Siemens and a Telefunken 6DJ8, differences that we audiophiles agonize over. The problem is that we as audiophiles have many more opportunities to compare different cables, tubes, cartridges etc., so as to form opinions concerning their "family" sounds, than opportunities to hear comparisons of different musical instruments or different equipment used by musicians. But plenty of recorded examples exist; we just need to know what they are.

While I can't claim to be an expert on vintage violins, I can speak with some authority on this issue as concerns woodwind instruments (I play them for a living). The sound of say, a Powell flute, regardless of vintage, is quite different from that of a Haynes or a Brannen; the differences are not that subtle, and are easily captured by the recording process. To hear a classic Haynes sound listen to any recording of Jean Pierre Rampal. An even better example of captured differences in the sound of different makes of flutes are the recordings fo James Galway. Listen to the 1972 recording of the Mozart Flute and Harp Concerto in C K.299 (Angel SC-3783). On this recording Galway, still playing principal flute with the Berlin Phil., is playing on a Powell flute. For comparison, listen to any of his solo recordings on RCA; he plays a Brannen on all of these. If the fact that the Brannen is far more brilliant, aggressive, and almost tin-whistle like is not obvious in comparison to the Powell's suppleness; then as Danvect says, you need a new system.

Other examples: Pepper Adams "Ecounter" Prestige 7677 (1969). Classic Pepper Adams; beautifull and robust baritone sax sound with plenty of warmth and growl. Pepper used a Berg Larson mouthpiece on his horn during the 60's and 70's. His mouthpiece was damaged in the early 80's and had to switch to a Dukoff. Listen to the dramatic difference in sound, and how much more edge and lack of bottom his sound has on "Urban Dreams", Palo Alto Jazz Records PA8009. Incidentally, these differences are not the result of different recording techniques; although this can obviously have an important effect.

Any of Phil Woods' recordings pre 80's. "Rights Of Swing" (1961)or even his great alto solo on Billy Joel's "I Love You Just The Way You Are", are great examples of the classic Selmer(Paris)made saxophone sound: bright but with lots of body and very complex. In the 80's Phil switched to a Yamaha alto. On "Heaven", Blackhawk Records BKH50401-D, the Yamaha's thinner and less complex sound could not be more obvious.

By and large, the differences that we are talking about here are far greater than the differences that dedicated audiophiles are able to hear by "tweaking" our systems. And once again we, IMO, come back to the reality that for the audiophile that wants to really sensitize him/herself to details such as these; the best education is a good amount of exposure to live music. In the live music experience, all the details and wonderfull complexities of fine musical instruments, are revealed that much more obviously.

To anyone really committed to learning about what makes instruments tick, so to speak, from the musician's perspective; there are plenty of resources. Periodicals such as "Woodwind Player", "Downbeat", "The Grenadilla Society", "Stradiverius Society", "Flute Talk" and others offer articles and interviews with leading professionals and discussions on this very topic.

Regards and Happy Holidays.