What is the standard for judging a systems sound?


It is often said in these threads that this hobby is all about the music. That live music is the only meaningful standard for comparison when determining the quality of a stereo system. While these words sound good, are they really true?

A violin should sound like a violin, a flute should sound like a flute, and a guitar should sound like a guitar. Many purists will immediately say that amplified/electronic music cannot be used as a standard since a listener can never really know what the intention of the musician was when he/she recorded it, and what that sound should be.

Even something as simple as an electric guitar has multiple settings from which to choose. Electronic keyboards have hundreds of possible voices, so how does the poor audiophile know how the tone was supposed to sound?

These are valid concerns. Back to the purists!
“That’s why only unamplified classical music can be used as a standard!!!” On face value that looks like an acceptable statement. Consider some facts though. In my immediate family we a have several musicians who play a few different instruments. We have an electric piano (due to a distinct lack of room for a baby grand), acoustic guitar, Fender Stratocaster electric guitar, a nickel plated closed hole flute, a silver plated open hole flute, a viola, and a cello.

I have a fairly good idea how each of these instruments sound. One comment I must make immediately is that they sound a little different in different rooms. Another comment, which demands attention: when I bought my first flute I knew nothing about flutes. I began fooling around with it and enjoyed the sound. I liked it so much a bought a better, as mentioned silver open-hole flute. This flute sounded much better than the first flute. The tone was richer (the only words I can think of to describe the difference).

The reason for that background information is to show that the same instruments in different room’s sound different, AND different models of the same instrument have a much different sound!

If we audiophiles are using live unamplified music as a standard there are still several important issues, which must be addressed. How do we really know what we are hearing? What instrument is the musician playing? Was that a Gemeinhardt or Armstrong Flute. What are the sonic characteristics of the specific instrument. Stradivarius violins sound different than other violins, if they didn’t people would not be willing to pursue them so aggressively. Better instruments (theoretically anyway) sound better than lesser instruments. The point here is that different versions of the same instrument sound different.

I have seen the same music reproduced in different settings. I have heard string quartets play in a garden in Vienna. I have heard the Pipe Organ in Stephan’s Dom. I have heard Rock and Roll in arenas and Performing Arts Centers. I have heard jazz played in small one room clubs, not to mention the above listed instruments played in the house.

Each one of these venues sounds different from the other.

When I am listening to a selection of music at home, how do I know how it is supposed to sound? None of the LPs sounds like any of the particular places I have heard live music, while none of those places sounded like any other either.

There is no standard by which to judge the quality of live music since no two venues sound alike. If everyone were to go to the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden and hear Tchaikovsky’s Symphony No. 6 would everyone hear the same thing? Even if they did, and that one concert became the standard by which all other recorded music was judged, would that be translatable to allow the judging of all other music?

I have never heard a cello reproduced as well as my sons playing in the living room. I have never heard better flute players sound better than my own terrible playing at home.

So what do we audiophiles really use as the standard by which recorded music can be judged?
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If the goal is attaining fidelity to the music as recorded, whether to vinyl, CD, tape, etc., then the only practical test is to compare the sound of your system to the sound of the final mix in the studio where the music was mix/mastered. That sound is the sound the artist and the engineers agreed was the sound they were trying to produce. The actual sound of the musicians playing in a real space is for all practical purposes unknowable and hence irrelevant.

Even the most minimalist recording requires a microphone, a microphone amplifier and a recording medium. Each of these components will in some way color the signal. There are literally millions of different combinations of these three components where each grouping will show slightly different colorations. However, the contribution of the equipment is insignificant when compared to the skill the engineer takes in positioning the microphone(s) to pick up the music coming from the musicians. Fractions of an inch really do make "huge" differences in the final sound of the signal. Without even taking into account the harmful effects of the audiophile's room and system, there are simply too many unknown variables between the listener and the original live sound for anyone to really know how the two differ.

When you're listening to music over your system you're not really listening to the sound of music being produced in a hall. Instead you're only listening to the music as captured at a specific point(s) in that hall by a microphone(s) and recorded to a storage medium. It's the recording engineer who compares this recorded sound to the original live source. The final mix or mastering stage is his final statement of how successfully he did his work. You would have had to been at the recording session to truly judge the engineer's work. But if all you want to do is test your system accuracy, then you could rent the studio where your best sounding album was mastered and play it back over the studio's system.
Funny as it may seem but most of the folks who responded to this thread know what they are talking about! I hardly see any dissagreements between various posters here. All have put forward valid points and interesting explanations (viewpoints). Yet, when two auddiophools discuss equipment there is always invariably a heated debate!

I have had the pleasure of listening to some instruments being played live (unamplified) from few feet away which included the harp, sitar, and guitar amoung others and one thing that I appreciated that the ambience that the instruments created was something that I have yet to hear in any audio system at any price.

Live music and reproduced music (through a hifi) are two different things altogether, NO COMPARISION!
I find nothing disingenuous in using recordings of unamplified music as the most valid test of a stereo system's accuracy; to the contrary, it is quite logical to do so. Why this is not obvious to some, I can not understand. Yes, everything that Onhwy61 says about the distortions added to music along the way to becoming a cd or lp is true, but does it not make sense to use recordings that have the least number of these deleterious variables? These are, without a doubt, recordings of unamplified music, recorded by a good engineer. Have we forgotten what it is that makes the classic RCA's, Lyritas, London's etc. great; minimal miking, minimal processing and a commitment to preserving the sound as heard in the hall. Yes, you can most definitely hear the characteristic sounds of different venues on good recordings. The sound of Carnegie is easily heard on many recordings, as is the sound of a club such as The Village Vanguard. If you doubt this, spend a few nights at the Vanguard and then listen to Bill Evan's "Waltz For Debby" and tell me that the characteristic sound of that historic, funky little club is not all over that recording. This is all valuable information that serves to test a system's fidelity.

Moreover, a system that does a good job of reproducing unamplified music will IMO do a superior job of reproducing amplified/processed music; assuming fidelity to the master tape is the goal. I have heard many high-pedigree systems that sound "really good", exciting on pop, rock, and even on alot of contemporary jazz, then you play a recording of a large string section in a hall, and OUCH! strings don't sound like that. Usually way too much high frequency content that makes the instruments sound screechy and thin.

The really unfortunate thing is that as audiences for live, unamplified music become more and more scarce, the standard for judging true high-fidelity will be diluted more and more. Is it really that important to adhere to such a lofty standard? Probably not. Music is about emotions, and ultimately, as was stated above, if it sounds good to you that's what really matters. But let's not be cynical or judgmental of those who acknowledge that such a standard does exist, and that ii is worth pursuing.

Happy listening.
Frogman, what I am saying is that a listener can only have a general idea what the original recording sounded like since there are too many variables in every concert.

What type of violin did the soloist play, what type of flute was each flutist playing, what are the accoustical signatures of that hall? How many people were in the seats (since this will affect the sound)? You as a listener cannot answer these questions so you cannot possibly know what the recording should sound like.

Frogman will respond with; I know what a violin, flute, or oboe sound like! Yes in general you do know what each sounds like, how about the specific instrument being played in that particular room.

I have never been to the Vanguard, so I like most people who have ever lived cannot make any determination if a particular recording should sound the way I have heard it.

If music sounding good is the standard, upon what is that standard based? It isn't live music, since your system will not reproduce music that well. That statement is not a condemnation of Frogman's system, I would say the same about Albert Porter's system which is probably one of the best ever set up!

On certain recordings if I listen hard enough, and use my imagination the music sounds magical, but it still doesn't sound like there is a musician sitting in front of me playing his/her instrument and singing just for me. I wish it did, but...