balanced is inherently flawed

Sean, good response, as was Ralphs. You have acknowledged many of the positive aspects of balanced circuitry noting the absolute most important point. Most notably, your point #3.

There are MAJOR differences between "quasi" balanced circuits and "true" balanced circuits. This factor MUST be recognized when evaluating. Installing XLR connectors on a component does not a balanced circuit make.

I provided the Jensen link (Bill Whitlock), in hopes that persons would familiarize themselves (if not already familiar) with the actual differences defining "balanced" vs. "true balanced" circuits. It clarifies with a high degree of accuracy and very little sales "slant".

Herman had mentioned the additional expense of manufacturing components with provisions for balanced interconnection and throughput. Well? This is partially accurate. Many quality manufacturers incorporate "true balanced" configuration as "standard equipment". I didn't "option" any of my components with "true balanced" configuration. It was already there. Maybe that could be considered an added benefit of a $5000 integrated? Along with chassis dampening, airborne and structure borne vibration control, high quality close tolerance components, short signal paths, etc, etc, etc. In short? Sound engineering practices.

Bottom line? If balanced configuration is utilized "true to form"? It has many benefits over single ended. Once again the key words being "true to form".

"True to form" is NOT a Ferrari with a Chevy motor in it.

Dang! Spot on!

I can't tell you how often I have people call me thinking they have a 'balanced' input on what is clearly a single-ended amp! Just 'cause you have that connector- don't let that fool ya.

I would think that it goes without saying that a 'balanced' amplifier or preamp was built that way from that ground up, but it isn't always that way.

Also, we probably ought to discern the difference between balanced differential and plain old balanced. Balanced differential is usually the simpler of the two, and generally quieter. Some of the ARC amps from the late 70s were balanced but they were not differential and they were also extremely complex. Complexity is definately not a prerequisite of balanced operation as differential circuits can be quite simple.

My McIntosh 2102 has balanced inputs but then it converts the signal to unbalanced which means there is just more adjustment before amplification.

Thus, using the unbalanced inputs in this case is better which is the opposite of my Audio Aero Capitole Makr II CD player's connections to my matching Audio Aero Capitole Amp which makes for perfect bi-amping in my home: unbalanced to the McIntosh and balanced to the Audio Aero....all from the same Cd player.

Atmasphere, welcome to the discussion

Ouch! I’m glad you decided not to flame me. It would have been reduced to tears. At first I was going to just walk away with my tail between my legs utterly defeated until I realized:

A: you misrepresented what I said about gain
B: other than the noise issue, you offer no reason why balanced is better
C: you cloud the issue with facts that have nothing to do with this issue, who cares what the phone company uses, we’re talking home stereos
D. You chastise me on the issue of balanced sources but don’t provide any. Remember, this is home stereo, not a recording studio
E: you completely ignore the heart of my position i.e. truly balanced and/or differential amplifiers introduce distortions due to the impossibility of creating perfectly balanced and/or differential circuits, especially with tubes.

Let me elaborate.

1. I never said that a balanced amp has more gain than single ended. I was attempting to refute the commonly held belief that balanced is better since the output of a balanced stage is typically louder when using the balanced vs. the single ended inputs, which most people incorrectly describe as an increase in gain instead of an increase in loudness. If I didn’t clearly articulate this then I apologize for the confusion. Just as most people confuse phase and polarity, I was attempting to minimize confusion for the vast majority of people who would describe this as an increase in gain. I know as well as you that it is not a matter of gain, but I’ll stand behind my contention that louder does not equate to better.

2. I never said that balanced doesn't have some design benefits like you mentioned, and I do understand the types of noise that you describe, but if my 103 dB speakers are dead quiet with single ended gear, how much quieter can they be with balanced? Granted, dead quiet without a signal applied is not a test of its ability to reject noise generated in the supply while under load, but it’s not that hard to build a well regulated supply. I’ll give you the fact that there is a theoretical advantage in regards to noise performance. I just don’t think there is any real advantage in practical use. If your system produces 12 dB less than nothing, who cares?

3. It is hard to disagree with your claim that “balanced lines can deliver the signal better” since “better” isn’t exactly a quantifiable parameter. Surely you can produce a more convincing argument than it is better because it is better. I’m also at a loss trying to understand your statement about balanced systems having “far less interference from the cables!” What type of interference are you talking about? Your information about transcontinental phone transmission may be accurate, but we’re discussing stereos here, not transmission of signals over thousands of miles of cables. Just because a 747 may be a good choice to get me from NY to LA doesn’t mean I would use one to go across the street. Please allow me to throw in my own “sheesh” at this point.

4. What you say about studios is true. As I stated in my original post, studios use balanced gear to good advantage, but once again, I must point out that we are talking about sound reproduction in the home, not studio recording or transcontinental phone transmissions. I don’t use any microphones or tape heads, and cutting an LP with balanced gear does not make the information on it balanced. A CD or LP or tape mastered in a balanced studio is still encoded single ended onto the CD/LP/tape.

Where are the balanced sources in a home system? A phono cartridge perhaps, but how many phono stages process it as a balanced from input to output? Even the mighty Aesthetix IO takes the balanced input and feeds it to a single ended stage before converting it to balanced. Besides, I’m not sure a phono cartridge is really balanced since used it in that fashion it is a floating source with no reference to ground. I could be wrong about that and I would enjoy hearing an explanation to the contrary.

I see nothing in your post that gives any reason why balanced gear will sound better than single ended other than the potential for better noise performance, and since my system doesn’t have any noise issues, I’ll stand behind the blather in my original post.

From your website I see you have devoted many years to your passion and I applaud you for that. After the Futterman fiasco you were either very brave or very foolish to continue down that path. I'm sure your stuff sounds swell. However, my contention is that you could have made a system just as swell or better with a single ended design and done so at a reduction in cost.

Now take a deep breath, gather your thoughts, and if you can offer something besides noise rejection, better is better, studios do it, and the phone company does it, then I will be happy to consider your response.

p.s. Sean, I’m not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with my contention that sound is single ended to begin with. You hear because your eardrum moves in and out in response to the increases and decreases in air pressure from some vibrating source. There is no equal but opposite pressure wave arriving at the same point in time like there are two equal but opposite electrical voltages in a balanced amp. Perhaps I’m not making myself clear or it may be totally unrelated to what we’re talking about, but I thought it illustrated my point that single ended was the natural order of things.

Herman: A cymbal moves up and down to displace the air. The rate that it displaces air is called the frequency and the volume of air displaced is the loudness or amplitude.

Just as the cymbal is pushed down and displaces air in that direction, the other side of the cymbal swings up and displaces air in the opposite direction. It is an equal and opposing force. If we didn't maintain the equal and opposing force, we wouldn't mantain consistent air pressure. If we don't maintain consistent air pressure, we start to develop a state of vacuum. The greater the vacuum that we develop, the less air that we have to displace. When we don't have air to displace or air to replace what has been displaced, we have total vacuum. If we have total vacuum, we don't have sound. Therefore, sound is generated by moving air in a balanced format.

Our ears work the same way. That's why our ears "pop" as we change altitudes rapidly. The pressure inside our ear is not equal to the pressure outside due to the varying densities of air, creating an imbalance. Once the pressure is fully balanced inside and out, our hearing returns to normal and we no longer have "popping" taking place. Sean
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