Shipper is responsible for insurance:Discussion

You are right on the money Elizabeth. The seller is responsible for the packing, shipping and safe delivery of the item as advertised. If the product does not arrive in said condition, it is the sellers responsibility to deal with filing the claim. It should be at the buyer's discretion as to whether they want to wait out the results or obtain an instant refund as it is not their fault that the product was damaged or lost during transit. As such, the seller should NOT "blow" the money that the seller sent them until the transaction has been fully completed and all parties are satisfied.

Having said that, in situations where i've received damaged goods, i've typically asked the seller to sign a waiver giving me the rights to pursue the claim on my own. Since i do business with UPS / Fed Ex on a commercial level and most of my incoming parcels are shipped to my shop, i tend to get slightly faster and better results than they might dealing with either of them as an individual. Having had to file a few claims along the way*, i've learned a few tricks that tend to work in my favour. Sean
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* Most of the claims that i've had to file boil down to the fact that the parcels were NOT properly packed. However, UPS did accept them for shipping and agreed to insure the contents, regardless of whether or not they inspected the contents prior to shipping. If the product did not meet their standards for shipping and proper packing, then they should not have accepted the funds to insure said parcel. Once they accept such fees, they are legally bound to cover any damage that occured while in transit. Otherwise, they are breeching the contract that they made at the time of accepting responsibility for said item and you can sue them if necessary in order to recover any loss or damages incurred. Sean
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I think there ARE laws that govern the transfer of title and liability between shipper (seller) and shippee (buyer) whether it be before, during or after the goods are transfered.

Somehow, these laws, Uniform Business Codes and Incoterms, are not used as much when personal goods are involved. Is there a reason for this or are people just not aware?

Sean, how sure are you that UPS would agree that everything they ship insured is their liability for accepting it insured as such? I see too much optimism in that belief or intimation... I've got a $6k case at my employer that speaks volumes otherwise, and it is only a marginal shipper negligence case. Still, I don't think you're making that case so much as having had a reassuring bit of luck in working with them -- not all of us are as lucky to have such claims workers in our area.

I remain skeptical of all shippers, and when the seller is negligent, I find that to be the hardest of situations for the buyer. It's almost like being mugged - the seller and the shipper both can act like they're not on the hook, and your costs to prove either wrong are too high to pursue. Triumph of the system --- and the UPS / FedEx game plays the curve, with their risk pool paying out only the worst and most highly litigated of their mistakes. Buyer/receiver loses.

I suggest to ALL audiogon'ers to DEMAND of their shipper to double-box shipments that such service is appropriate for (anything at all heavy, or already in manufacturer packaging that weighs anything over a couple pounds). Unfortunatley, alot of sellers will pay you lip-service -- but make it clear to everyone that you are expecting xx of service as described, or paying extra for xxy, and that's how it is. And when selling, get ready to accommodate the same.

Do your best unto people, hope for the best unto you. In an ideal world, expect their best as well.

Mike

Agree 100%. Only the seller has control over actually purchasing the insurance. The buyer may be charged for it, but he still can't ensure, heh heh, that the item is insured. Only the seller can do that, and it's then a contract between the seller and the insurer, who has assumed the risk of the shipper. This was discussed on a motorsickle board that I frequent, and the (reasonably large) parts company actually asked a customer to "send the money a second time, until the insurer settled" since the shipper lost the goods. Unbelievable.

From the insurance standpoint, I will tell you how large insurers see it.

Example:

You accept money for goods. You pack the items and take them to work the next day to ship. You make the deposit at lunch, but when you leave after work to ship the item, it has been stolen.

These large insurers view the item as NO LONGER BEING yours, since you were paid for item. The transaction and possession have transpired, ownership has transferred upon acceptance of payment.

I concur, the shipper has the responsibility to file the claim, follow up, and as Sean states, file a release to the buyer since the shipper has NO INTEREST in the unit. By interest, I mean proper authority to make decisions as he/she are no longer the legal owner.

I disagree the buyer has the right or option to choose to follow the claim or demand a refund. If the item has not been packaging properly, then I agree, buyer is 100% responsible. HOWEVER, if packaged properly, or in factory package, I do not feel the buyer should FRONT the money for the refund AND wait for the carrier to make the their decisions.

Unfortunately, in this situation someone has to take the risk, and I, personally, with proper packaging, feel the BUYER is the one to accept the risk. The buyer accepted this risk upon purchase, entering into the possibility of damage during transit. Now, this would be my stance in a 'repair' bill, versus a 'replace' or 'total loss' bill.

As a buyer, you need to be aware of such potential risks of loss, and DEMAND/PAY for security. Proper insurance, proper packaging, and the likes just as the seller should demand such.

I recently sold a Velodyne HGS-18II, FACTORY SEALED. It arrived to its destination, damaged. I did nothing wrong in describing the item, promising proper timeliness of shipping so how can I be held responsible? What if I already owned an HGS-18II that I dropped a Theta Dreadnaught on and cracked one end. Ah, I know, buy one from someone, swap them out upon delivery, demand my refund, and let the poor seller deal with it. THIS HAPPENS!
DO NOT BE A FOOL TO THINK IT DOESN'T.

Someone just purchased a Sony DVP-7700 from me. Unit had some superficial surface scratches on top, nothing major, and came with factory packaging and box. BUYER wanted complete safety, and paid to have the FACTORY box put into a larger box, with added padding/support. Not to mention the size of the box and newly added weight added to the cost of shipping. This is responsiblilty for BOTH parties involved.

As a buyer, I do not like NON FACTORY packaging. RARELY does anyone package properly. It is not cheap, it is not easy, BUT as a buyer AND seller, both need to be aware of the risks of going 'cheap-o'.

Rule of thumb, (does not guarantee safe delivery) buy with factory packaging. If not, BE SURE IT IS DOUBLE BOXED with PLENTY of packaging, foam, and according to the carriers demands.

Dan