tube amps and electrostatics

Here is what is real... the feedback used in transistor amps is what keeps them from destroying the speakers. That same feedback is also one of the things that makes a transistor amp bright. It can do that to tube amps too, but tubes can run with less or even zero feedback and have good HF bandwidth even on ESLs.

It appears that George and I are at loggerheads. I have in the past had difficulty taking much George has posted with anything other than a grain of salt, as often (as we see in the post above) the *math gets ignored.*

He is the only one I know of to challenge a technical comment made by Al.

If we can see an ESL efficiency curve that shows that the efficiency of the speaker drops with the impedance curve, I would be willing to concede he had a point. But no such curve exists. What information that does exist suggests that any ESL has the same efficiency at 10KHz that is does at 50 or 100Hz.

There is also personal experience. Something like 80% of our MA-2 production over the last 23 years has been for Sound Lab installations. During that time, we have sold a lot of amps to customers with Quads, Acoustats, Audiostatic and King ESLs. In that time its been really obvious when we encounter an ESL that is designed for transistors- the highs are muted as George suggests. The thing is, that does not happen with *all* ESLs, only some, and there is a fix for that- the ZEROs as I mentioned earlier.

Also in this case I was careful to use the word 'associated' in my comment that he quoted (which excuses it from being a generalization, instead it is a statement taken from the experiences of many people).

Its my opinion that George is grinding an axe.

Some cannot see the forest for the trees.

Martin Logan ESL Montise sterophile review, driven by Audioplax 80w tube monoblocks, also by ProLogue tube Premiums, and then by Simaudio Moon Evo 7's solid state.

Quote from the measurements by JA:
"The shape of the impedance trace will result in the Montis's top octaves shelving down when the speaker is driven by a tube amplifier having a high source impedance. This is why Robert Deutsch found that his Audiopax amplifier sounded too soft and lacking in definition."

Quote from the Robert Deutch review:
"The other tube amp I had on hand was the Audiopax Model 88 Mk.II. The Audiopax driving the Avantgarde Uno speakers is a "magical" combination: detailed and transparent to the source while minimizing the "electronic" artifacts of the reproduction process. The Audiopax-Montis marriage was not a happy one. Although the Model 88 Mk.II's rated output is 30Wpc—not that much less than the ProLogue Premium's 40Wpc—the Audiopax was dynamically on the subdued side even at moderate levels, and the sweetness and liquidity that had been so appealing with the Avantgardes now came across as too soft and lacking definition.
Next up was the Simaudio Moon Evolution W-7, a 150Wpc solid-state amp. The sound of the Montis driven by the Moon W-7 was vastly different from its sound with the PrimaLuna or the Audiopax. It now had dynamics in spades, evident as an ability to play much louder without strain, as well as more clearly present the ebb and flow of music at moderate levels. Bass was more extended and better controlled; the double-bass passages in Sylvia McNair's Sure Thing: The Jerome Kern Songbook (CD, Philips 442 129-2) were more distinct."

I have asked Roger Sanders to come to this disscusion he has cred both in ESL's and amplifiers to drive them with, so I hope he will respond. It's was posted here that he of course is biased towards his own S/S amps for esl's, but that was quickly edited out, why was that????

Cheers George

Ralph- Save your keystrokes.

I'll stand on my position that technical specs never tell the
whole story, and any given reasonable combo of gear, even with
electrostats, can win on any given day. Too many other
factors come into play. no substitute for listening and
hearing. Tube sound lovers will probably still like the tube
amp sound for the usual reasons and vice versa. Neither will
likely hold all the cards always. Like usual. Good sound is
shades of grey usually, not black and white.

George, I happen to enjoy reading many of your posts in other threads. But I feel compelled to politely suggest that Ralph Karsten (Atmasphere) and Al (Almarg) are among the most respected A'gon members. Both are EE techies. And Ralph is the gent behind Atmasphere as in the "designer" and maybe the owner too.

In short, you're taking on some pretty heavy-duty guys. I suggest you back down and carefully re-read what Ralph and Al posted. I happened to think that what they wrote makes sense.

Ralph and Al, the discussion begs the question of how can one know whether an ESL was voiced to be driven by a tube versus SS amp. Obviously Sound Lab ESLs were designed to be tube friendly, ergo Ralph's comment that his amps have been coupled with Sound Lab ESLs for years. Is it the same old answer -- call the manufacturer and ask?? Or try to determine the type of amp that was used by the manufacturer to display the ESLs at shows??

Seems to me that what gets a bit dicey is the case where the ESL is coupled with a cone/dynamic speaker to cover LFs. Then we're back in the soup with "rock and roll" impedance curves.

Folks, let's try to remember this is a just a cool hobby and we're all friends.

Cheers,

Bruce