PMC vs. ATC

You're right Brizon, we're all in collusion against you. Stereophile is out to get you too.
You've gotta check out Audio Asylum. I can just imagine you and RGA going at it!
Happy 7 day anniversary as an Audiogon member :-).

"That is their history and that is fact. Neither impulse response or IMD are relevent here you are just tossing in technical terms to try to make yourself look like an expert, hoping that I don't know what they mean and will back down."

No actually I was hoping you had more than some listening experiences that directly conflicts with my own. Are your experiences more valid that mine? See we are in a dead lock, what I hear versus what you hear is juxtaposed. But I thought maybe you'd explain how the PMC midrange is better than the ATC? Thought maybe you'd have some facts, my laying down the rules of engagement was to add some structure on what level I wished to discuss this vast improvement you claim for the PMC has come about and how it manifests itself as superior in the design. I am listening to what you have to say, It be nice to learn something on this forum.

You are the one who keeps upping the stakes and we've got a long way to go before I'm all in if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately, what I hear is junior league sales training coming from you and the reason I know is because I went through it myself. In your posts you seem to want to overlook that the ATC is designed to go against or in the wall which will have it load the room even better than a T-Line, especially when placed in the wall.

As I posted earlier it is only a matter of time before I am a PMC dealer too, I have not said once that the ATC is better than the PMC what this discussion is about is that ATC's are not as bad as you portray. I think I've said that like 5 times now.

Up till now you are the one who wants to to validate your experiences and you are the one who has put himself in this position by making outrageous statements justifying you opinion and experiences. Don't tire out on me now, I'm just seeing if you can back it up. Do you have a problem with that? If you want I can back it up, just ask me, what do you want to know?

"They are designed for mix analysis - that is where atc started and where they sold to the studios."

That is not what Billy Woodman told me, what did he tell you?

"I don't need a high frequency response plot to know a speaker is sharp if my ears are bleeding!"

So speaker manufactures like PMC and ATC (same level of professionals use their equipment world wide) become respected world over and yet the ATC's are flawed to the point where they make your ears bleed. See how ludicrous your comments are? And yet the typical weak *ss tactic of "I didn't claim expert status - you did - so I don't have to defend myself as a "tourist"", well you seem quite certain that I'm out of line and so I thought that required you knowing something I don't? So I thought you'd share some real facts not some sales back story. Instead you've flexed your Clintonesque skills of talking around the point and trying to make me the topic when its the speakers I want to talk about.

"Let's talk tweeter characteristics and crossover voicing. That is where the atc problem lies and they are voiced that way for a reason."

So what is wrong with the SEAS tweeter?

http://www.seas.no/SEAS%20by%20Excel.htm,

I'd like your opinion the link will get you to the site. And if the ATC's measure flat +/- 1 dB in room from 1200-16,000hz where is the peaky voicing?

C'mon dude slam dunk me, I'm not guarding the hoop, its wide open. Just one interesting relevant fact about the PMC's or ATC's performance to justify that the ATC makes you run from the room and the PMC is the cat's pajamas.

What about the tweeter, do you know what the distortion is for that tweeter at 3Khz?

None of what you told me already means anything...T-Line does not make a speaker tolerable and one intolerable. I'm looking for something good like the rise time of the midrange has been improve X%...I'll be waiting, don't let me down.

No collusion - just human nature. People with vested interests are not impartial. Especially when it involves money. Hifi mags are corrupt - it has been proved in court in the UK. I also have friends "in the trade" and I am very well aware of what gopes on between dealers mags and the manufacturers. I am already on audio asylum - who is RGA? ;-)

Sales training? This comment is rather revealing - so your spiel is "advanced sales training" then (advanced BS? ;-))? That would appear to be it in a nutshell. I dont work in hifi. However I do come from an engineering research background and my arguments are based upon that angle. Your suppositions are way off as always. As I said neither IMD or impulse response are relevent here. Had you made some more pertinent comments your assertions may have deserved more credulity.

Speaker performance isn't just about driver stats. Can you know a speakers bass extension just from the bass driver frequency range? Of course not. Same for the treble. The atc frequency response plots I have sign have a slight rise in anachoic conditions which equates to a treble peak in real life when reverbation in a real listening room is considered. +1db sine wave isnt much but +1db broad band signal is a lot of extra energy and the ear can pick it up easily. Again this cannot necessarily be deduced from the driver - the crossover and cabinet must be considered, as well as typical listening conditions. In addition frequency plots dont tell the whole story. Variations in off axis response can make any speaker look flat if you position the mic right - doesnt mean it reflects real life though. Lies, damn lies and statistics... and as these are musical reproduction devices the ultmate test of acceptibility is how they sound - in conjunction with rigourous enginerring development. I buy based on sound not stats (though I would like to imagine good engieering and good sound quality are strongly linked). However the latter on its own is not enough. Plenty of hifi has outstanding specs all round but still sounds awful. Because people develop to these metrics and our understanding is not complete. Plus manufacturers pick and choose specs to show their equipment in its best light and ignore the shortcomings so manufacturers specs are not a relaible source of information. This is true in every engineering field. There are opamps and transistors with fab specs but sound terrible - it's only when you examine them yourself that you see the short comings and they are not necessarily encapsulated by tradition specs. Music is a complex signal and it is very hard to make effective metrics - steady state sinewaves are not always useful - which is why lsitening tests are so essential. The ear is a nonlinear mechanism and the least well understood of our senses still. Psycho acoutics is still a bit of a black art.

In addition PMC midrange units are proprietary and the specs are not in the public domain (as you well know). The bottom line is - PMC sound markedly better on female voice. Partly due to TL and partly due to the improved midrange unit. If I was able to compare the specs of the two drivers I could perhaps suggest a reason for this. If you have them please forward them and I will be happy to do so.

To claim rear wall reinforcement will load a room as effectively as a TL is rather a bizarre staement at odds with scientific theory and practice. Back that up with a rigourous explanantion. I heard the ATC's close to the wall and also away from the wall. It was sharp either way. In addition TL stiffens the bass driver to give a double benefit. In combination these two effects not only improve the bass but have knock on effect into the midrange (which they partially cover anyway).

ATC have changed their story to match the changing times and the consumer market. They have already tweaked drive units and crossovers to make them more domestically acceptable in the treble and bass over the last few years. I have spoken to rec engs over the eyars and I know what they are used for. The sharpness is not a "flaw" when considered for the pro market. As I said the atc do what they are designed for - which doesnt align well with domestic use. Just because a spanner cant tithten screws doesnt mean it is flawed. Its a fit tool for its purpose and so is the atc. But now they want to make money from the home market. The adaptions they have already made prove my points.

As I recall I restricted myself to the products until you made groundless suppositions about the dems I have attended. In that light your remarks look pretty Clintonesque - accusing me of the very thging you are guilty in order to draw attention away from that fact. I dont say anything is wrong with the seas tweeter. I beleive the vociing of that unit in conjunction with the crossover is "wrong" and that has nothing to do with distortion specs at 3 khz. So you have a distortion versus frequency trace - so what? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing it seems. Look at the big picture. Not 0.1 db difference in distortion at 3 khz.

I am well aware you will sell both pmc and atc. I said you are baised about atc as you sell them I didnt say you were baised for atc over pmc ;-).

Yours is sales speil - good spiel but spiel nonetheless. Unquestioning acceptance of tech specs without really seeing the big picture or understanding R&D. Being able to quote tech specs and drop a few terms in doesnt equal understanding.

You ordered the "slam dunk" pizza - it just got delivered. I hope you like the free garlic bread.

Ah Brizonbiovizier,

Well your attempt at slam dunk came up a bit short. And all I wanted was a temperment of your earlier comments about the ATC's and I think I got it, thank you.

Voicing differences I can accept, and I'll never get through to you because you know so little about speakers. But keep up the R&D, your better than average you just have a few wires crossed.

I will tell you this for future reference, I'm not a salesman and I have done more R&D than you have, especially in audio. SO just be careful because our conversaation never got above elementary for me and I lost you when I went JR High on you..

PS: Try not to confuse the TL superiority over Ported systems with superiority over sealed box systems. Oh and I almost forgot my scientific response, "2pi loading" Been fun.