Is harmonic accuracy and timbre important at all?


Disclaimer: I am not Richard Hardesty in disguise. But I have reached similar ground after many years of listening and equipment swapping and upgrading and would enjoy discourse from a position that is simply not discussed enough here.

I feel a strong need to get on a soap box here, albeit friendly, and I don't mind a rigorous discussion on this topic. My hope is that, increasingly, manufacturers will take notice of this important aspect of music reproduction. I also know that it takes time, talent, money and dedication to accomplish accuracy of timbre in speaker design and that "shamanism" and "snake oil," along with major bux spent on fine cabinetry that may do little to improve the sound, exists everywhere in this industry.

I fully acknowledge that Dunlavy and Meadowlark, a least for now, are gone, and that only Vandersteen and Thiel survive amidst a sea of harmonically inaccurate, and frequently far more expensive, speakers.

Can you help me understand why anyone would want to hear timbre and harmonic content that is anything but as accurate as possible upon transducing the signal fed by the partnering amplifier? It seems to me if you skew the sonic results in any direction away from the goal of timbral accuracy, then you add, or even subtract, any number of poorly understood and potentially chaotic independent and uncontrollable variables to listening enjoyment.

I mean, why would you want to hear only some of the harmonic content of a clarinet or any other instrument that is contained on the recording? Why would you not want the speaker, which we all agree is the critical motor that conveys the musical content at the final stage of music reproduction, to provide you with as much as possible by minimizing harmonic conent loss due to phase errors, intentionally imparted by the speaker designer?

Why anyone would choose a speaker that does this intentionally, by design, and that is the key issue here, is something I simply cannot fathom, unless most simply do not understand what they're missing.

By intentional, I mean inverting the midrange or other drivers in phase in an ill-fated attempt to counter the deleterious effects that inexpensive, high-order crossovers impart upon the harmonic content of timbre. This simply removes harmonic content. None of these manufacurers has ever had the cojones to say that Jim Thiel, Richard Vandersteen or John Dunlavy were wrong about this fundamental design goal. And none of them ever tries to counter the fact that they intentionally manufacture speakers they know, by their own hand, are sonically inaccurate, while all the all the same in many cases charging unsuspecting so-called audiophiles outlandish summs of money.

Also, the use of multiple drivers assigned identical function which has clearly been shown to smear phase and creates lobing, destroying essentially the point source nature of instruments played in space that give spatial, time and phasing so important to timbre rendering.

I truly belive that as we all get better at listening and enjoying all the music there is on recordings, both digital and analog, of both good and bad recording quality, these things become ever more important. If you learn to hear them, they certainly do matter. But to be fair, this also requires spending time with speakers that, by design, demonstrably present as much harmonic phase accuracy that timbre is built upon, at the current level of the state of the art.

Why would anyone want a speaker to alter that signal coming from the amp by removing some harmonics while retaining or even augmenting others?

And just why in heck does JMLab, Wilson, Pipedreams and many others have to charge such large $um$ at the top of their product lines (cabinetry with Ferrari paint jobs?) to not even care to address nor even attempt to achieve this? So, in the end I have to conclude that extremely expensive, inaccurate timbre is preferred by some hobbyists called audiophiles? I find that simply fascinating. Perhaps the process of accurate timbre appreciation is just a matter of time...but in the end, more will find, as I did, that it does matter.
stevecham
I have lived for years with time-and-phase correct loudspeakers, but based on my listening experiences would not claim that time-and-phase correctness is of primary importance in recreating the perception of a live performance.
So Duke, what then is of primary importance?

I imagine that if one thing is of primary importance, it is just as important that several other dimensions, such as dynamics, at least meet some minimal level of performance.
One of the issues Audiokinesis brings up is if a speaker is phase/time accurate, but there is a difference between the on axis and off axis frequency response, then the in-room tonal balance will be compromised and the speaker will sound artificial. So it is possible for a speaker to accurately reproduce an input waveform, yet still not sound very good.
Hi Drubin,

I'd say the main attributes a loudspeaker should have for quality reproduction are: Natural-sounding tonal balance (with radiation pattern playing a critical but oft-overlooked role here); lack of audible distortion (which covers a huge territory and includes imaging and clarity and detail); lack of power compression within the required loudness range; and adequate extension at the frequency extremes.

Onhwy61, bingo. That's exactly what I was saying. You might enjoy taking a look at this site:

www.gedlee.com

A fascinating book is being written by Earl Geddes, and he's posting the chapters online as he goes. You might find the second and third chapters, on "Psychoacoustics" and "Measurements" respectively, especially interesting.

Duke
I agree tonal balance is a major part of the equation. I also agree all time/phase coherent speakers don't guarantee a pleasing sound. At the same time Bigtee does have a very good point. There should be a standard in creating a waveform as close to what the speaker is fed from the source. If you didn't have this what will you have in the end? Don't get me wrong..I like some flavor in the music. But I want to add it myself upstream with tubes ..etc. Having an extremely coloured speaker from the start isn't a good idea IMHO.

If I'd known this a few years ago, I could have save myself a lot of money and heartache . There are post all the time about room issues like fat bloated bass etc. If the consumer knew from the start that the speakers he's about to purchase have a 6dB hump from 50 hz through 200Hz by its very design. It may save him from some of the headaches audiophiles post about almost every day. Of course this is ignored...and it is all the rooms fault. This doesn't make sense too me. This is good for the room treament manufactures as the money just keeps rolling in. I'm not saying their not needed. What I'm saying is you may need less of them with a properly designed speaker.
So many great points raised here, where do I start?

I asked Kathy at Thiel once if she or Jim knew of studios that monitored or mixed with Thiels let alone time and phase coherent speakers. They told me they had no knowledge. And even if the speaker is not in the chain, it is true that many recordings were made with the use of mono mix to ensure that ambient send/returns did not create cancelations so you can see how small imperfections in the subjective correction in that area might be caused by inaccurate monitors.

Believe me, sometimes I wish I were Richard Hardesty, or at least had the luxury of writing all day and listening to music and pissing people off. Instead, I do product management for a biotech firm. I'll bet Richard doesn't know what a polymorphonucelotide sequence is.

Yes mass market compressed crap is just that.

I'm not in the least concerned that we are not reproducing a live event but that we are accurately reproducing a recorded one.

Warrenh: I have three speakers that I believe are accurate. Meadowlark Kestrel2, questionable only because they are only two way and I don't think it is possible with anything less than three way. I also have Thiel CS6s and Vandersteen 2Ces, both of which I do believe offer accuracy that others I've owned, such as Paradigm Ref 100s V1, Dynaudio Contour 3.0, KEF Q15 never did. I used to have an original pair of Thiel CS7s and regret selling them for the Dynaudios. This was where my eventual revelation led me back to the sonic accuracy of the Thiel design, and now to Vandersteen. Hope this answers your question.

Hey I will stand on one unmoveable soapbox from the measurement angle in all of this: if the speaker can't do the triangular step response, then there is no way it can ever be timbrally accurate, even if it is flat FR wise; the time domain will eventually be realized as essential to recorded music reproduction in speaker design. Mark my words.

Thank you all again for such intelligent and stimulating discourse.