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Need help generating a short list

Greetings,

Well, I'm parting with my original VR-4's, which have served me well for many years. In some ways, I wonder if I'm making a mistake selling them, as they're still a wonderful loudspeaker even by today's standards.

At this point, I'd like to consider a more "lively" loudspeaker. The VR-4's are very "warm" sounding, and easy to listen to. The downside to this presentation is a lack of dynamics and impact. Bass extension is not an issue with the VR-4's, but the slam of a kick drum, the pluck of a bass, or the crack of a rim shot just isn't there. Having played the drums for many years, I yearn for a system that can recreate the dynamic impact of a drum kit!

I've tried many speaker technologies over the years; Horn (Altec 19's), Planar (Maggie's), Electrostatic (Martin Logans), and Conventional (Legacy Convergence, Thiel 2 2, Thiel 3.6, VR-4, others), and for some reason, have always come back to conventional designs. Of all the speakers I've owned, the Altec 19's were the most visceral, but they lacked detail and imaged poorly. The live event was there, but it was all mixed together. The most dynamic conventional speaker I've owned was the Legacy Convergence (similar to the Focus), but the presentation was too "hi-fi," and very fatiguing.

I realize it would be impossible to find a loudspeaker with the dynamics of a horn, midrange of a planar or electrostatic, and top to bottom detail of a superior conventional design, but I would imagine some speakers come close. I'm not talking $50K+ speakers, but speakers in the $5K range.

I've seen many a reference to the Aerial 10T and Talon Khorus as being very dynamic, yet detailed and extended, but what other speakers might be considered, particularly current models? I have a very large room, and need a speaker than can play loudly without compression. I realize horns are ideal, but I cannot afford the entry price for even a mediocre horn system.

With hundreds of manufacturers out there, I'm trying to develop a short list so I can limit my search/research. We don't have many "high-end" shops in my neck of the woods (Tampa Bay area), so it's likely I'll have to seek some of the products out during my business travel. Any help would be most appreciated.

By the way, I am intrigued by the "Waveguide" technology, that seems to offer the benefits of a conventional design, with some of the properties of a horn. I've been away from this hobby for 12+ years, so I'm very wet behind the ears. To my chagrin, there are still no shortage of companies trying to stack drivers in a tower configuration (ala Legacy), but it's certainly possible that this configuration has improved over the years.

Any help would be most appreciated!
seadweller
kwtoxman
25 posts
 
Upgrading the preamp is an option.

As for horns you could consider the Tannoy TD10's. They are a newer version of the D700's I listened to. Audiogon has a set for sale. And there are a few reviews on the net. Interestingly Soundstage had great things to say about them using a SF line 2 preamp.

kw.....
t_bone
1,182 posts
 
While I am not an expert (and on the High Efficiency Asylum over at AA, there are lots of horn experts), there is obviously a difference in the way sound propagates out from a front-loaded (horn) driver speaker when compared with a plain point source. I think by its very nature, a point source speaker will be "punchy" whereas horns will provide a more "enveloping" soundfield. While I find good horns to be dynamic, there is less of a visceral impact to strong sound levels with horns vs the same sound level on box speakers. It may depend on what you value most when listening... is it the woofer making your pantcuffs fluff in the wind? Is it being able to correctly visualize how far back from the front of the stage someone is standing? Is it being embedded in a sound envelope?
seadweller OP
52 posts
 
I guess that's what made my Altec Model 19's what they were....A standard, front mounted, lighweight paper cone 15" woofer in a simple vented cabinet, with the 811B sectoral horn on top. In a sense, the best of both worlds. Despite their imposing size, they were fast and articulate. I'll bet properly set up, and with the right associated electronics, they'd give today's $20K systems a run for the money.

I think I've come to realize that I'm just not a fan of the typical tower speaker with 5 or 6 drivers stacked one on top of the other. Too many inherent limitations, including poor efficiency. There's 100+ companies throwing drivers in nice cabinets, and simply giving them unique sonic characteristics by varying the cross-over designs. It's interesting how all of these companies either come up as "recommended," or have received "rave reviews." It's a good thing loudspeakers are subjective!

I don't mean any disrespect, but I can see that the "high-end" has made little progress since I walked away from the hobby 12 years ago. Honestly, I was disgusted by the time I threw my hands up, it had gotten so ridiculous. "At only $9,500/pair, anyone considering speakers in the sub $20K range should audition these." Good grief....And the speakers in question had $1K in off-the-shelf drivers stuffed into tall, admittedly nice tower cabinets.

Wow, let me get back on track.....

What I do like is:

Realistic imaging, good placement within the soundstage, fast execution, and wide dynamics. When a drummer hits a rim shot, I don't want to hear a muted pop, but that mettalic "crack." When a bass drum is struck, I want to feel the percussive attack, not a thud. I also enjoy the subtleties and intricacies of small ensembles and vocals, but don't like that "lush" presentation that most speaker systems offer.

I'm not a big fan of "spooky" imaging, that has things coming from the walls directly to your left or right; it's not realistic. When I see a concert, I don't sit in the middle of the stage. Being able to realistically place the performers is high priority, but "spookiness" is not on my list. Finally, the ability to remain uncompressed and accurate at any volume, including concert levels, is important.

Now, I'm sure I could find many a $30K speaker that might satisfy many of these desires, but if technology has really progressed as many say, then I shouldn't have to spend even one-quarter of that.

Ok, I've stepped off my soap box........

8)
tvad
9,467 posts
 
Unless you are willing to adjust your requirements, it appears you are headed down a road to disappointment with currently available audiophile loudspeakers.

Perhaps you should stick with what you have, build your own DIY loudspeakers or buy some Altec 19s.

Have you considered that the problem you are having with your VR4 loudspeakers might be the result of your electronics...or even old or low-resolution tubes in the SF preamp that should be replaced?
seadweller OP
52 posts
 
I don't doubt I'm looking for something that doesn't exist, or may not be available at a reasonable price point. The sad thing is, I believe this level of performance should be reasonably affordable.

I've tried the VR-4's with several amplifiers (JFET/MOSFET), and have listened to them with tubes as well (BAT), and the tubes imparted a real tubbiness to the sound. I've upgraded/changed the tubes in the pre-amp, etc. Nothing markedly changed their overall balance, which was warm and restrained, with very little mid-bass excitement.

It seems that there are two general camps when it comes to the conventional cone/dome loudspeaker camp; there's the warm and lush camp (Thiel, Vandersteen, Von Schweikert), and then the analytical camp (Legacy, who knows who else). I find the former boring, and the latter fatiguing.

I wonder if Altec's reborn A7 would be the ticket, albeit at a lofty price point. Perhaps I'll wait until '07, when I attend the CES show, to see what's out there. If I could find a mint pair of Model 19's in the interim however, I might just complete the circle!!!

Thanks again for everyone's input!!!!!!!!!!!!

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