2. speakers
  3. 1211169304

Harshness in tweeters: the price of transparency?

Hi,

I can't help notice a correlation between ultimate tweeter transparency and having to put up with harshness at loud volume levels. It can be very transparent and smooth to an appreciable volume, bit exceed that and it will go harsh if you apply the materials necessary for max transparency in those drivers.

I owned titanium dome tweeters in Avalon Eclipse speakers that ultimately caused me a case of a decade-long bout with tinnitus from the titanium dome tweeters, even when using a smooth Music Reference RM-9 tube amp.

I then owned a pair of horns with lightweight metal compression driver diaphragms. Again, unbearable harshness at loud levels where the metal "breaks up".

I now own a pair of beryllium dome tweeeters in speakers that again are volume limited before that metallic glare and harshness comes in. When I had silk domes none of that happened to me, but the details and transparency are markedly down for those drivers at all volumes.

The most transparent drivers I heard were the best tweeter horns but at the cost of harshness. They exceeded electrostatics for dynamics and transparency and detail, but at that cost. Electrostatics seem to me to be the best compromise in midrange on up detail and smoothness but with a real decline in dynamics.

Maybe diamond is the answer with its extreme rigidity and hardness. But I'm not rich enough for that yet, and probably never will be.

What's the scoop on the best tweeters out there for all of what I'm asking for here, but at a reasonable price? One possibility that intrigues me is the ceramic tweeter, but again, I don't know and those are not cheap either.

I want to play horns and cymbals loud and clear, without that bite in my ear. Soft domes aren't enough for me, at least not the ones I've heard after hearing horns and beryllium.
ktstrain
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
When you get into this territory, every element can potentially add harshness. The highest potential offender is your CDP, then your amp, then your speaker cables, ICs and PCs. Of course, as mentioned earlier, some CDs are horrible, no matter how excellent your system.

Often overlooked is speaker placement. Intermodulation Distorion between the speakers adds a harshness and "shouty" nature to female vocals and horns. (I play trumpet, so I'm particularly sensitive to this). Sumiko's Master Set speaker placement method is the only thing I've discovered that addresses this. (Look for my review in the review section. Guidocorona also mentions it). In most systems, this is so effective it's like doubling your investment in equipment.

EQ will not fix this, it can only cover it up. Most EQ processors add their own IMD and negative elements. The very best processors can have a place in systems with room nodes that can't be cured with placement or traps and other acoustic devices; however, this is an expensive route that will not get you all the way to where you seem to be headed.

Some people move to tubes to take some edge off. I think this is a false god, that gives into the issue, but doesn't correct it. Anyway, the very best reference-level tube systems will reveal every flaw also.

Dave
dog_or_man
68 posts
 
It's amazing to me how many of the most expensive systems showcased here on Audiogon and over on the Asylum are completely devoid of RF-filtration and room treatment. I've seen systems that would cost six figures (even without figuring in the cost of swapping things out over and over along the way), set up in a room with no acoustic treatment and with a CD player parked directly underneath a preamp.

The good news is that there are some inexpensive things you can try. A set of "power wraps" on the power cords and interconnects for the CD-player and preamp would be a good start. If you hear an improvement you can move on to other forms of shielding. Also, if you don't already have room treatments, try listening with small throw pillows taped in the front corners of the ceiling. You won't like the midrange, but if the high-end sounds more like what you're looking for, you can proceed to purpose-built tricorner traps by a number of vendors such as ASC and RealTraps.

Good luck.
shadorne's avatar
Ag insider logo xs@2x
shadorne
7,333 posts
 
I want to play horns and cymbals loud and clear, without that bite in my ear.

Of course, another possibility is simply that your expectations are unrealistic.

Are you familiar with real acoustic drum sets, real trumpet and trombone? Frankly, on a good recording if these lack "bite" then the system is just sugar coating the sound...
stiltskin
499 posts
 
Ktstrain,
I have not been a fan of speakers built in a box for many of years.
However my bias towards speakers in a box has changed over these last few years.
Recently I heard a pair of speakers with diamond tweeters at high volume levels at times with not a hint of hardness at all.

They were the B&W 800D. What made up part of the rest of the system was a EMM Labs digital player and the speakers were driven with the ASR Emitter Exclusive 1.

Sheffield Labs absolutely superb recording of Harry James and his big Band was the first disk I picked for listening.
We ended up playing this disk twice that afternoon, because I'm a big fan of Harry.

The volume level was just right for me and I still shake my head when thinking about that afternoon.
We went through various types of music from Pink Floyd to Irish Celtic.
Volume levels varied from softly played to near eye denting levels, not to my liking, too loud.

I'm still going through a learning curve with speakers in a box and I guess I could state that with other components that make up a system.
jeffreyds
111 posts
 
Based on your requirements, Gallo Ref 3s might be worth an audition.

Jeff
More to discover