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Harshness in tweeters: the price of transparency?

Hi,

I can't help notice a correlation between ultimate tweeter transparency and having to put up with harshness at loud volume levels. It can be very transparent and smooth to an appreciable volume, bit exceed that and it will go harsh if you apply the materials necessary for max transparency in those drivers.

I owned titanium dome tweeters in Avalon Eclipse speakers that ultimately caused me a case of a decade-long bout with tinnitus from the titanium dome tweeters, even when using a smooth Music Reference RM-9 tube amp.

I then owned a pair of horns with lightweight metal compression driver diaphragms. Again, unbearable harshness at loud levels where the metal "breaks up".

I now own a pair of beryllium dome tweeeters in speakers that again are volume limited before that metallic glare and harshness comes in. When I had silk domes none of that happened to me, but the details and transparency are markedly down for those drivers at all volumes.

The most transparent drivers I heard were the best tweeter horns but at the cost of harshness. They exceeded electrostatics for dynamics and transparency and detail, but at that cost. Electrostatics seem to me to be the best compromise in midrange on up detail and smoothness but with a real decline in dynamics.

Maybe diamond is the answer with its extreme rigidity and hardness. But I'm not rich enough for that yet, and probably never will be.

What's the scoop on the best tweeters out there for all of what I'm asking for here, but at a reasonable price? One possibility that intrigues me is the ceramic tweeter, but again, I don't know and those are not cheap either.

I want to play horns and cymbals loud and clear, without that bite in my ear. Soft domes aren't enough for me, at least not the ones I've heard after hearing horns and beryllium.
ktstrain
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
Kana813, you got a few things wrong; since I retired the CJ amp there's no longer need to invert the polarity at my speakers (proper polarity confirmed with a test LP and CD, since it can vary with equipment). Oh, you've got to learn to play guitar and don't just "play" the trumpet put perform with several symphonies, wind ensembles and a funk/rock/soul band.

I thought Kana813 and I were having an offline discussion, but if he's going to follow me around, I'll share his method. First you pull your main speakers way out into the where nothing below the mids can get out. Next, realizing that you're massively short of bass, buy a couple of huge MoFo subwoofers and push them right into the corners. Next, throw up some bass traps in hopes of controlling the huge nodes created by your super expensive, bi-amped system. Finally, just when all seems hopeless, add in a mega-bucks processor to attenuate the bass peaks by sucking off power and adding digital hash, extra ICs and all the attendant compromises into the system. Cap it all off by messuring EQ at the seating position and declare rig "perfect" because the EQ is now flat. Ignore IMD because you don't know how to measure it and if anything is hard to measure, then it must not be important. ;-)

Did I get it right?

Obviously, YMMV and different strokes for different folks applies.

Dave
gawdbless's avatar
gawdbless
1,165 posts
 
Age cures all harshness.
shadorne's avatar
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shadorne
7,333 posts
 
I would either learn to listen always at moderate levels even if the dynamics of the recording want to go high, or look for another pair of speakers once again. And that is going to be challenging.

Kurt,

Challenging in consumer audio yes - because such high SPL is not normally required. Costly speaker drivers must compete with nice finish and elegant woodworking - factors that are much more likely to be appreciated by an aesthetic conscious consumer. You are simply discovering the physical limitations of most low cost consumer speaker driver designs: drivers that were never intended to produce extremely high SPL's cleanly and without harsh distortion. If you continue down the path of eeking out high SPL's from designs that were never intended to play so loud then you will likely end up being the unhappy owner of a blown speaker.

My advice is to look for far-field speaker designs used by professionals for monitoring in studios rather than consumer designs. Studios deal with real live music every day (before it is compressed for distribution to consumers for home/car/personal audio systems) - they also have similar accuracy requirements shared by audiophiles (unlike most nightclubs, stadium and DJ/PA speaker customers who will forgo quality for the sake of loudness).
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
I'm just afraid that Kurt has already damaged his hearing; therefore, I think that he should focus on improving his ambient noise level such that he can enjoyable listen at lower volumes. Yes, he needs speakers and amps that won't distort at 100dB, but he needs to be listening at an average level below 90dB and maybe more like 85dB.

With proper placement and a really transparent, non-distorting system, I think that he can get there.

Dave
tvad
9,467 posts
 
I'm one for letting each person decide for himself how loudly he wants to listen.

Personally, I find it hard to enjoy some music at 85dB, whereas other music is fine at that level.

AC/DC at 85dB just doesn't cut it.
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