Change to Horns or stay Dynamic

Just quick note from Wikipedia about Woodstock 1969.
Do not think it is irrelevant to home listening.
JBL D140 drivers and Altec horns in good condition is almost impossible to find.

"Sound for the concert was engineered by Bill Hanley, whose innovations in the sound industry have earned him the prestigious Parnelli Award. "It worked very well," he says of the event. "I built special speaker columns on the hills and had 16 loudspeaker arrays in a square platform going up to the hill on 70-foot [21 meter] towers. We set it up for 150,000 to 200,000 people. Of course, 500,000 showed up." ALTEC designed 4 - 15 marine ply cabinets that weighed in at half a ton a piece, stood 6 feet straight up, almost 4 feet deep & a yard wide. Each of these woofers carried four 15-inch JBL LANSING D140 loudspeakers. The tweeters consisted of 4x2-Cell & 2x10-Cell Altec Horns. For many years this system was collectively referred to as the Woodstock Bins"

And now for people who hate math, but have money.
Horns are very simple to understand. Sound pressure is not a linear but logarithmic function:

1. You start at 1 watt.
2. To get first 10 DB above your speaker's sensitivity you need 10 Watt
3. To get second 10 DB you need 100 Watt
4. To get third 10 Db you need 1000 Watt

5. So if you draw the curve.
Your DB's are on vertical scale Y, and your Wattage on horisontal scale X.

From 0 to 1 watt it is almost steeply upward. First watt is the most linear part of the curve.

6. From 1 to 10 watt it is flatten up to ~ 45 degree (compression starts to build up)

7. From 10 to 100 watt the curve goes only 15 degree uphill
8. From 100 to 1000 watt the curve is almost horisontal. You pump 600 more Watts and get 1 db more. Ha Ha.

With horn I have 111 DB with one watt. Nondistorted linear 111db. To get those 111 db with the cone speaker (Sens. 85Db at 1 watt) I need to pump ~750 watt. Guess how heavy the coil will be to handle 750 Watt.

Think.

Sirspeedy,

You have the right guy. It was nice meeting you at the show. That room didn't do much for me. I just wanted to give it a chance.

Rhyno,

Found it a few days ago. Thank you. Romy seems to really hit a few key points in his analysis about horns that line up exactly with what many others say & with what I have heard.

The bass speed & extension limit remains the most difficult to circumvent without having tremendous horns. I need to read more. One thing I will say for sure, understanding design first will allow a more informed choice in speakers. It will also help explain what we hear. The problem with 20 Hz in a horn is the size requirements and length of the horn. Hence all the back loaded horn designs etc.

Shadorne,

It is funny how ATC & PMC have not been as successful in the US as other companies. The truth is, they don't have the looks or the WAF to make them special. I am going to make the effort to hear them, as too many ears I respect have migrated to this direction. It is a gap in the market that really needs filling. I heard a wonderful speaker in Munich that I would almost accept. Backes & Muller. A German brand with some truly unique design elements. The sound was incredible and they use a unique "horn" type tweeter with active amplification. I didn't read a lot about it but it was one of the best sounds at the show. Something special. The price was also "special" in the 60-100K range at least.

As far as eye watering abilities, I am going to merge this conversation w. Exlibris question and do a redirect on the thread.

Exlibris,

It depends on what we listen to as our reference. The truth is a true live concert leaves me fatigued. That is for Rock & Roll. Classical is a different stor as is Jazz. But there is pressure and it can be fatiguing. I think live music is fatiguing at times as well. Especially anything with a large group. We feel the pressure.

So my question is - are we able to live long term w. the pressure or do we need 2 systems. I think the pressure will get to be much at a certain point. But any large venue does produce sound pressure/air pressure. From the crowd the room etc. Have you ever been to a restaurant w. poor acoustics. I find leaving the restaurant to be a relief after a point in time.

Is the pursuit of live vs. "musicality" in conflict. Is that why many people use SETs for horn systems? Mind you many people are using class D amplification or digital amplification on horns these days. I have a feeling that is probably too honest for long term listening enjoyment.

I am speaking in circles but at some point this hobby is steering me and many others in circles.

I just went to a live jazz show last night and I didn't find the pressure too much. But the room was very large and it allowed the sound to relax. and not overload the room. I guess the speakers we buy determine what venue we want to be inside.

darren, sounds like you and i are after the same thing; after listening to the WP6s for years, i'm growing tired of their distortion, their blurred microdynamics, and the lack of dynamic expression...despite wilsons being the most dynamic monkey coffins i've heard.

the ? to you in your experience w/ cessaro et al: how'd they do w/ a drum kit? bass guitar? seems like this hobby is all about compromises, and horns mean you compromise the bass & weight of the performance, or you compromise your domicile with a gigantic speaker.

ATC might be an interesting solution.

best

Two horn speakers with your stated requirements of wide dynamic range with low distortion at high output levels are the Summa by Dr. Geddes and the Jazz Modules by Duke Lejune of Audiokinesis. I have heard neither of the these speakers but the general consensus in the various forums is that for both loudspeakers these are the main characteristics where they excel.

It may not be coincidence that the design philosophies are similar in both cases. Both Loudspeakers use high quality pro drivers and waveguides for the compression drivers and are constant directivity designs. Dr. Geddes has done extensive research in distortion perception and dynamic compression issues in loudspeakers, has put forth the Waveguide Theory (as opposed to Horn Theory) and holds a number of patents related to loudspeaker design.

I Have no relation nor have I ever met Dr. Geddes but I have been impressed with the depth of his knowledge in his postings. For a crash course and to deepen your knowledge and understanding of horns and waveguides do a search on diyaudio.com under the author "gedlee". Oh, and by the way both of the aforementioned choices will leave a chunk of mullah in your wallet compared to the high-end darlings of today!

Cheers,
George