Tube Watts vs. Solid State Watts - Any credence?


I've heard numerous times that Tube watts are not the same as Solid State watts when it comes to amps running speakers. For example, a 70 watt tube amp provides more power than a 140 watt solid state amp. Is there any credence to this or just sales talk and misguided listeners? If so, how could this be? One reason I ask is a lot of speakers recommend 50 - 300 watts of amplification but many stores have 35 watt tube amps or 50 watts tube amps running them. More power is usually better to run speakers, so why am I always hearing this stuff about a tube watt is greater than a solid state watt?
djfst
Tube amps using ultra-linear mode of operation use a lot of global negative feedback to generate a higher wattage.

Bombaywalla, taken either in or out of context its hard to take this comment seriously. I've modified many Dyna ST-70s where the only feedback was the ultralinear operation itself and the amps worked fine. But the real problem with this statement is you can't apply feedback to get greater power. If the amp is capable of greater power is something entirely independent of feedback.


"Output stage coupling is a combination of “ultralinear” and Audio Research’s patented “partially cathode-coupled” topology, which is superior to conventional pentode or triode operation."

Its funny to me that they got a patent on that since Leslie amplifiers (of Hammond organ fame) had used the same technique in the 1950s.


I'm not even treading into the realm of "is 14dB too much global negative feedback?"!! ;-)

14 db is an 'inbetween' figure which normally leads to *increased* distortions of some harmonics, but as others have said the ARCs use other forms of feedback as well- ultralinear being one, and the cathode cross-coupling being another. If neither technique were used 14 db would very likely be problematic.


tube amps have no bass hence it's power mostly applied towards mids and highs while the solid state amps go full range.

As prediceted, I take umbridge with this remark as it really is simply false. Our amps make full power to 1 or 2Hz depending on the model. But what is really going on here is that most box speakers don't have decreasing impedance as frequency goes down; while many have dual woofers arrays, they will also have an impedance peak that is part of the resonance of the drivers in the box. So if you have a 4 ohm tap you can likely make that work on a tube amp.

More importantly is the question of whether that's even a good idea, as every amplifier technology known has audibly higher distortion when driving lower impedances. I've yet to encounter a good reason for increasing amplifier distortion if sound quality is the goal!!


well some of them isn't most of them. it's nature of tubes and output transformers. they're weak when impedance of speaker goes down on low frequencies.

This statement is false. First- tubes are not frequency-dependent devices and often have bandwidth far in excess of most semiconductors. The design of the output transformer is the real variable- its no problem designing one that will do quite well in the bass. The trick is doing that and getting the highs right at the same time.


Yes, a watt is a watt, but, the way most tube manufacturers measure their gear, a tube watt is, arguably, LESS than a solid state watt because tube manufacturers typically spec the output at a much higher allowed distortion level.

This statement is misleading. The way both solid state and tube amplifier manufacturers do it is with **the onset of clipping**. Many tube amplifiers will have higher THD at the onset of clipping than solid state amps might. FWIW that THD is usually of lower-ordered harmonics that the ear finds to be musical, whereas solid state amps are far more likely to have much higher levels of the 7th harmonic, which the ear finds to be really objectionable. Hence the tube/transistor debate over half a century after tubes were declared 'obsolete' and yet the tubes are still here.

And if you are thinking 'well all we have to do is build a solid state amp that doesn't make any 7th and it will sound as smooth as tubes' you would be nearly correct, so have at it!! The best designers out there (Nelson Pass, John Curl, Charlie Hanson) are all aware of this fact and have been for a long time. Its no coincidence that they have designed some of the best sounding transistor amps made.
Ralph,
thanks for pointing this out - you're right feedback & output power are not related. I should have written that sentence differently pointing out that output power depends on the topology of the tube - triode vs. ultra-linear vs. pentode with the output power going progressively higher as one moves from triode to pentode.
10-11-15: Bifwynne
Thanks Bombaywalla. I really enjoyed reading the 1983 Atkinson and Messenger ......
welcome Bifwynne.
yeah, I figured it might be difficult to understand what was written in that patent application not only because of the material of the subject but also due to the fact that it was written in technical legal-ese that patent attorneys love!
I believe that the basic premise of the partial cathode-coupling in the ARC output stage is to reduce output distortion while reducing impedance in the output stage circuit at the same time. This technique also allowed the ARC amps to have a "complex load driving ability" (written in his patent application) which in plain English means that they could drive tough speaker loads (the types that exhibit crazy phase angles that flip between capacitive & inductive over the audio spectrum).
10-12-15: Frogman
I will let the more technically astute than I debate the technical side of this
issue, but experiences with both tube and ss amps have shown me that
there is much more going on than "a watt is a watt", or wether
the amp in question is driven into clipping and how it reacts to being driven
into clipping.
I'm afraid that a watt is a watt & it is the distortion characteristic of a tube amp vs. that of a s.s. amp that appears to give the listener the impression that a tube watt is more powerful than a s.s. watt. It is not.

I bought my first pair of Stax F-81 electrostats back in early '90's when my
system included a NYAL Moscode 600.
this makes sense - an amp that is good for driving dynamic cone type loudspeakers (Thiel) & magnetic planners (Magnepan) cannot be assumed to be good enough to drive an electrostatic speaker. Electrostatic speakers are effectively a large capacitor to the power amp. This model of a capacitor for an electrostatic speaker comes from the fact that you have a stator on either side of the rotor/energized thin film that effectively creates 2 parallel plates of a capacitor where one is the top-plate & the other the bottom plate. Both stators create either the top-plate or the bottom plate. If the electrostatic loudspeaker looks like a large capacitor to the power amp, it also means that the impedance of such a speaker follows a 1/f profile i.e. speaker impedance is very high at low freq & very low at high freq. Just the opposite of a cone type speaker or even a magnetic planar. Since the electrostatic speaker's impedance is very high in the bass region, guess what?, the power amp has to pump current into a high impedance at the bass freq. Any s.s. or hybrid amp (which acts like a constant voltage source) will reduce its output with increasing speaker impedance. No wonder your NYAL Moscode 600 sounded horrible with an electrostatic & it was totally expected. A tube did much better because most tube amps act like constant power sources constantly adjusting their output current & output voltage to keep output power constant as the speaker impedance changes. This also means that a tube amp can give you relatively constant power (20% variation can be expected) over the 20Hz-20KHz range while a s.s. & hybrid amp will decrease its power into a higher impedance speaker load. it is no wonder that the Dynaco outdid your NYAL hybrid amp. Totally expected.
You have to be very careful which amp you connect to an electrostatic speaker due to the speaker looking like a capacitor to the power amp. Most power amps oscillate & self-destruct when they have to drive large capacitive loads.
It is no coincidence that SoundLab customers use tube amps almost exclusively (I think a lot of them use Atma-sphere amps) & that Sander Sound Labs makes a special s.s. amp for electrostatic speakers.
A watt is a unit of quantity and all are the same, but each case is different regarding the characteristics of each watt produced and how it sounds. Same amp can perform radically different with different speakers.

So saying a watt is a watt is true in theory in terms of how much power is generated, but in practice, all watts will be different sounding case by case. So there is certainly credence in saying that and value in knowing it, but alone it still determines only one piece of the puzzle in practice.