Fidelity Research FR-64 vs. FR-54

Dear @dover / @thekong : As always you only looking for an " error " in what I posted here and elsewhere. I can’t remember you any single post in reference to mines where you really enriched/enhanced the ignorance level of audiophiles that reads the threads/posts. Always looking for an opportunity to " attack ". Fortunatelly with no success and this only increment your frustations.

Anyway, here my answer to your post:

as a very good student you repeat what the AHEE teached to all of us but that is not real rule because each " stage/enviroment " is diferent. Let me explain mine:

my subwoofers are not close to walls or in the corners, as a fact one of it is located in a " free " space and the other has the only wall damped, I still use, behind it. The main speakers that works 87 hz to over 25khz has no wall behind it but windows where in the center of the window ( floor to ceiling ) I have like 1m. wide damping. One of the main speakers is almost in a " freee " space. My in purpose room damping I’m using are ( mainly ) diffusors by RPG.

The furniture in the room are mainly wood/wool/cotton fabrics that are very good difussors and with some damping too. The rugs fabrics is all wool.

I have to say that I don’t live in my " island " of audio/music only environment/stage.
My system was and is enjoyed by several audiophiles and I listened " hundreds " of home audio systems here in México and USA. Lisneted systems from 25K-30K to over 350K prices. I did and still do that listening other system " lessons " to have true references against my system other than live MUSIC events.

So, it’s not only me who think my system distortions are really really low but other gentlemans including musicians that can attest it.

As you know and through the time I developed my own test/evaluation in deep proccess where through the years I received a deep training that permits me to identify several kind of distortions you just can’t imagine exist in your system. That bullet proof evaluation proccess is repeatable anywhere and I can identify advantages and disadvantages in any home system in no more than 1 hour.

Other that what I posted here about part of my system you can read too my latests posts in the subwoofer thread. I can’t give you all the information of my system here, it’s full of very fine details.

Due to your post I took some part of my evaluation proccess that normally I don’t use it very often becfause I know very well my system and the results/success of my up-grades/up-dates/tweacks but I did it these past two days because your post:

fist is to compare through my Stax headphoes the quality sound level against my near-field seat position. Nothing here confirm or even approach nothing of what you posted: there are no higher distortions, phase problems, colorations, time errors, distorted soundstage or fundamentals/harmonics: CERO CERO.

second, I use ( first ) a stetoscopyc not only at the TT/tonearm under evaluation/playing but at the other TTs that were in static way and through the racks too. I did it using Telarc 1812, Dafos and Firebird tracks not at 83db normal SPL but at 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks and you know something: I can’t detect any vibration/resonance because that air borne.

Finally my water glasses test, with different glass sizes and different water quantities on each one. Where I put those glasses all over the system items that are inbetween speakers/subwoofers and you know something: NO SINGLE WATER MOVEMENTS at that very high SPLs.


On my posts here and in the Do you think you need a subwoofer? latest ones I posted: SYSTEM/ROOM NOISE FLOOR GOES LOWER AND LOWER WHERE THE ROOM ALMOST DISAPPEARED.
That is an experience where you can’t even dream with when you are living on and with those terrible 30’s.

When you listen my system you just can’t be aware of those subwoofers thank’s to system near " perfect " system/room integration that achieved a fenomenal system/room BASS MANAGEMENT as you can’t even dream with. You just can’t know what I’m talking about but my friends here can.
The level of resolution of my today system/room is second to none of all the systems I listened through my life.

No, it’s not a " fantasy " as you say trying to diminish my posts. The blend of whole circumstances/environment in my system/room made it that performs with that kind of quality level .

Btw, I did all my latest system/room evaluation with both alternatives: digital and analog one and I can say you and every one that digital is way superior to analog and I posted this not in the last month but for more than two years now.Btw, I’m not against the analog alternative, I like it too but can’t even the digital one.

Only whom his ignorance level is so high can today think that analog is superior to today digital

NO WAY MY FRIEND.

I can enjoy both alternatives and I will do in the future.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,
R.

I did it using Telarc 1812, Dafos and Firebird tracks not at 83db normal SPL but at 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks and you know something: I can’t detect any vibration/resonance because that air borne.

Really Raul? No vibration/resonance because that air borne? Why use a stethoscope when you have all those turntables setup, which is probably way more sensitive.

It was nice that you mentioned you were also using a Stax headphones, I hope you (and anyone who thinks he doesn't have feedback problem), wouldn't mind doing the following simple test and let us know what happens.

1. Play music (your Telarc 1812 would be great) using your CD/digital system through the speakers at normal listening level (yes, that 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks)
2. Lower the cartridge on a stationary platter / LP (i.e. motor off, platter not turning)
3. Connect the cartridge to the phono / preamp as usual,
4. Listen to the phono system with a headphone, preferably in another room.

I doubt that you could have complete silence (or faint noise from the phono) at the headphone. I am pretty sure you could hear faint music through it (although it could sound funny as it has gone through the RIAA stage).

If that is true, that means your turntable system is suffering from continuous feedback when you are playing LP, and you can throw all those 0.00002% distortion figures out the window!

Oh Raul, if you perform the above test and come back telling us you really hear complete silence through the headphone, I would be very interested to learn how you / your system could achieve that!

You were, maybe still are, trying to develop a tonearm, so you must know a lot about how the tonearm / cartridge system works, and have specific scientific knowledge about it.

1. Music, or sound, is basically a vibration of the air. So, the music playing through your speakers will certainly transmit the vibration to your tonearm / cartridge system, as there is nothing blocking its path.

2. As in your example, I suppose if you play the Telarc 1812 at 109db peak, you probably could feel the pressure on your chest. If there is so much energy transmitting to your chest, then how can the tonearm / cartridge be immune to it ?

3. A cartridge is designed to pick up the exact frequency range of the music, i.e. those coming through your speaker. So, even if your tonearm has absolutely zero resonance, how could it block / dampen the air-borne vibrations directly hitting the cartridge body.

Like you, I always try to learn, so I would much appreciate if you could give some answers with scientific prove to the above.

Thanks!

Dear @thekong @lewm and friends: Next is what I posted somewhere in this thread:

"""" Now and this is something that almost no one take care when talking of the FR 66/64 and is that that touted ( @lewm ) high mass is the other serious problem of those arms other than the main non-damped design.

In those old years tonearm designers and TTs ones were in favor of high mass to damps its products. On tonearms was SAEC whom publicited " papers " explaining the tonearm advantages of high mass designs as their models but were totally wrong because they don’t took in count how it really works the cartridge/tonearm combination along the spining LPs.

Exist no single LP that comes with precise/perfect concentric hole for the TT spindle to avoid the normal " excursions " during playback. Those " excursions " ( lateral movements. ) along the other characteristics for the cartridge very hard work ridding the LP grooves means that as higher the effective tonearm mass as higher problems to " stop " the inside/forward to the spindle natural path of the tonearm because of those movements.
Lower mass tonearm has lot lower problems to stop that natural inside inertia to follow in better way the LP grooves.

That dynamic mass/high inertia goes against a precise and clear sound and per se produces distortions ...........""""



Here you can read what explain in better way the very high problems of high mass tonearms like the FR/SAEC ones. What you read is an explanation how it works dynamic mass/inertia with cartridges I took the information from SS site and the explanation comes from PL owner/designer. ) that is similar what happens ( one way or the other ) with high mass tonearms designs. No it’s not exactly but you can have the whole idea of what I posted not only here but years ago in this same forum:

"""

On the left is a relatively SMALL Moving coil armature, the right is our LARGEST tiny permeable flux modulator. You can see by the obvious size differences that the moving-coil system has far greater mass, which means much higher inertia. That is a bad thing.

A large amount of mass in the moving system is greatly detrimental to the performance of phono cartridges. One obvious reason is the simple aspect of just getting the mass moving; moving this mass and then reversing its direction quickly as described above. The more mass, the more stored energy, and the longer it takes to get it moving (and the more difficult it is to reverse its direction).

One of the most important problems that arises from too much mass (or inertial problems) is what is the path of this "stored" energy? Where does it go??

The simple matter is that once you store energy in the moving system the stored energy must go somewhere to be dissipated or gotten rid of. Some of this energy gets damped, but a very large amount of this energy reflects back down the cantilever and into the stylus – which tries to put this energy into the record. This is extremely bad.

Since cartridges are designed to receive energy from a record, and not put energy into a record, large problems occur when this issue emerges. When there is an attempt to try to put energy back into the record the result is that the stylus jumps horribly within the record groove, and does not stay in intimate contact with the groove walls. Its like a badly designed sports car on a bumpy road. The resulting signal that is created is not entirely representative of what is recorded in the groove. Becasue it behaves like a tire on a bumpy road it spends lots of time in the air, and not much time in contact with the road surface. The stylus’ attempt to put energy into the record results in what is technically called a “mechanical impedance mismatch” – lots of energy being driven into a small mass (the stylus), which cannot “move” the massive record groove. The result is “groove jitter” and poor statistical-contact with the groove walls. If you cant stay in contact, you cant hear what is truly on the record! After all, if you don’t read all the words, you wont get the story ! Our job is to get you the entire story, not bits and pieces of it ............so how do we make this happen?

If you lower the generator mass, two important things happen: Less effort is required to move it, and less energy is stored by inertia, which results is far less energy reflecting back down the cantilever and into the stylus. This means less jittering of the stylus in the groove, because it has less energy that it is trying to put into the record. """"

That's what happens too in all high mass TT platters designs: storaged energy. For year too, I spoke and posted that that very high dynamic mass on TT platters induce distortions/resonances/micro-vibrations because every " body " in movement has it. We can't go against Physic Laws.

If it's true that on BD designs some kind of mass is need it ( higher than in DD designs. ) the high mass design path makes more harm than improve any single high mass platter design.

All today followers of that kind of wrong strategy that started the Japanese TT manufacturers are not only wrong but in worst condition that those very old Japanese TT designs because today BD TT platters comes with even 10 times more higher dynamic mass than the old designs. ! ! ! ! 

Yes, we have to stay aways of high mass tonearms and high mass TT platters design. Goes against MUSIC.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,

R.

Ridiculous analogy.