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Others experience re: subs and Magmepan 20

I have a pair of Magnepan 20r’s. Have enjoyed them for years. In my room they go to about 30Hz, response way down at 25Hz.

I am experimenting with a pair of Janis subs. This gets the response to about 25 Hz then down a lot at at 20Hz. It adds a little something but not I am not bowled. over. I hear and feel a bit (in my chest) on some music.

I would like to hear about others have experience with adding subs to nearly full range speakers?

Did you feel you got your money’s worth for "a few silly Hz"?

Thanks
imdoc
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gdnrbob
2,421 posts
 
@imdoc , I think you are crossing over too low and the 3rd order crossover (correct me if I'm wrong) is a bit extreme. I would use something less drastic, like a 1st order crossover (-6db) starting at 70-80hz. If you have a well made powered sub, it should integrate and provide you with the bass you are looking for.
Not to beat a dead horse, that is why the Vandersteen crossover and subs do so well in terms of integration.
@akg_ca , If I, or 98% of the Audiogon readers could afford a $10K sub, then, yes, it might make a difference, but considering the OP has a pair of not quite current Maggies (and I wish I had 'em), I doubt he/she would entertain a pair of ATC C1's.
For comparison, I have an office system with a pair of Hsu VTF-1's paired with Zu Omen bookshelves. The Hsu, in no way compete with a pair of Vandy subs (which I used with a pair of Zu Union). I was blown away when I played music on them with my Atma's. So, using your Janis subs would kind of be like using my Hsu's, but YMMV.
B

sfall
346 posts
 
"My question is less about what equipment and integration issues (that would a whole, complicated discussion alone) but rather other folks experiences who have tried this and do they feel they got substantial benefit from an extra half octave added to (almost) full range speakers to justify the expense, hassle and real estate taken up in the music room."

You can't separate the two. If you put 2 different solutions in your system that both get that extra half octive, they can sound completely different. It's a matter of quality and system matching. Just getting the system to play lower notes won't cut it in your system. I'm not a huge fan of Magnepan, but if there's one thing they do well, its bass. They take the quality over quantity path, and it sounds great. The only downside is that it's harder to integrate a sub.
imdoc OP
17 posts
 
randy-11

Stereophile test CD with 50, 40, 31.5, 25 and 20 HZ tones and a Radio Shack analog meter at the listening position I am pretty flat at the 31.5 Hz band (compared to the higher frequencies) and down 10 db or so at 25 without the subs


Music is virtually all/any but mainly rock, folk, classical.

But there are certain songs that I think I'm missing a bit of really low end:

Quick examples

"With God on our side" Neville Brothers

"Sista"  Rachelle Ferrell

"Solomon Sang" Cassandra Wilson


With or without the subs, things sound great;  I can't identify where the sub is located. Two of us listening can identify a little more low end with the subs, but not much.

With the subs, there is a bit of vibration in my chest - sort of fun (at first) but not what I get at the symphony hall and I suspect it will wear thin.

The subs are down at least 10 db at 20 Hz.


sfall
346 posts
 
akg_ca

I was reading through The Chronicles of Narnia and came across this.

"It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs. So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close. You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers. Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen."

If you ever get a chance to hear a pair of Quicksilver V-4's in a system like this, thats based on a VT-100, try them. As much as I liked the VT-100, I felt that the V-4's performed at a higher level.
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
4,908 posts
 

imdoc---akg_ca’s repost included a few assertions (well, a lot more than a few, and I didn’t make it through the whole thing :-) that must be disputed.

1- "it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900."

First, it is NOT impossible to build a really good subwoofer for under $1000. There are a fair number of Maggie owners very satisfied with their Rythmik F12G subs, to name just one under $1000 sub. I have heard the Vandersteen subs, very fine products, on many occasions, and while not wishing to pit Vandersteen against Rythmik, I can safely say that anyone who is satisfied with the Vandersteen is very unlikely to not also be so with the Rythmik. In fact, one’s preference might flip after having heard both.

But come on akg, do you really think the owner of Magnepan MG20r’s is limited to a sub-$1000 (no pun intended) subwoofer?! There are a number of incredible subs available which are valid competition to the Vandersteens, if funds are available.

2- "This is the only subwoofer (referring to Vandersteen of course) that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal."

What a ridiculous, arrogant statement! That is patently false. Whoever wrote that sentence must be woefully ignorant of the products of a number of designer/manufacturers who set their sites on that exact goal. Richard Vandersteen is not the only talented speaker designer out there, for gawds sake! I could name a few, but I’ll just mention Danny Richie and Brian Ding, of GR Research and Rythmik Audio respectively. Brian Ding designed his line of subs (which incorporate Mr. Dings patented Direct Servo-Feedback technology) for music reproduction, and Danny Richie and he collaborated on a 12" driver offered with either an aluminum cone (for high volume application, including loud music and/or home theater) or a paper one (the "G" in the model designation of the Rythmik F12G, which uses the paper-cone version of the woofer, refers to GR Research) specifically for music listened to at less than extreme volume, it’s lower mass providing higher low-level resolution.

In addition, they also collaborated on a very unique subwoofer designed specifically for "the highest of high-end music systems"---an open baffle/dipole sub (two 12" woofers mounted in an OB "H-Frame", powered by the Rythmik Servo-Feedback amplifier), the ultimate design for mating with a dipole speaker such as Maggies (and ESL’s, and Ribbons). The GR Research/Rythmik Audio OB/Dipole Sub is, and I say this with the upmost respect, a completely different animal than the Vandersteen, and all other, sub(s). Is the writer of the quoted sentence even aware of GR Research and Rythmik Audio products, or all the other high-end designs now available?

3- "In fact his (Vandersteen) crossover is so ingeniously simple that it is a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way."

It IS simple, and it WOULD be a wonder if nobody else thought of doing it the same way. But they DID, and a long, long time ago! Advanced enthusiasts having been employing a simple 1st order crossover as a high-pass filter since the 1950’s. You don’t really believe no one before Richard Vandersteen thought of something so obvious, do you?! The Dahlquist x/o in the 1970’s used that exact technique---a single capacitor to filter the signal going to the main speakers.

Now, if you’re talking about Richards technique of taking the signal for the sub from the speaker taps of the main power amp, Richard is not the only one doing that either. Both Rythmik Audio and REL offer the same hookup, Rythmik also providing line-level connections.

All of this is not to say that the Vandersteen subs are not very fine products. Far from it---they are great. But they are not the only really good ones available for use in "the highest of high-end music systems". They do have some competition, and may in fact have some which surpass them. There are even Magneplanar fanatics who use the Tympani T-IV bass panels as subs for their MG series Maggies!

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