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Others experience re: subs and Magmepan 20

I have a pair of Magnepan 20r’s. Have enjoyed them for years. In my room they go to about 30Hz, response way down at 25Hz.

I am experimenting with a pair of Janis subs. This gets the response to about 25 Hz then down a lot at at 20Hz. It adds a little something but not I am not bowled. over. I hear and feel a bit (in my chest) on some music.

I would like to hear about others have experience with adding subs to nearly full range speakers?

Did you feel you got your money’s worth for "a few silly Hz"?

Thanks
imdoc
sfall
346 posts
 
akg_ca

I was reading through The Chronicles of Narnia and came across this.

"It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs. So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close. You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers. Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen."

If you ever get a chance to hear a pair of Quicksilver V-4's in a system like this, thats based on a VT-100, try them. As much as I liked the VT-100, I felt that the V-4's performed at a higher level.
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
4,908 posts
 

imdoc---akg_ca’s repost included a few assertions (well, a lot more than a few, and I didn’t make it through the whole thing :-) that must be disputed.

1- "it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900."

First, it is NOT impossible to build a really good subwoofer for under $1000. There are a fair number of Maggie owners very satisfied with their Rythmik F12G subs, to name just one under $1000 sub. I have heard the Vandersteen subs, very fine products, on many occasions, and while not wishing to pit Vandersteen against Rythmik, I can safely say that anyone who is satisfied with the Vandersteen is very unlikely to not also be so with the Rythmik. In fact, one’s preference might flip after having heard both.

But come on akg, do you really think the owner of Magnepan MG20r’s is limited to a sub-$1000 (no pun intended) subwoofer?! There are a number of incredible subs available which are valid competition to the Vandersteens, if funds are available.

2- "This is the only subwoofer (referring to Vandersteen of course) that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal."

What a ridiculous, arrogant statement! That is patently false. Whoever wrote that sentence must be woefully ignorant of the products of a number of designer/manufacturers who set their sites on that exact goal. Richard Vandersteen is not the only talented speaker designer out there, for gawds sake! I could name a few, but I’ll just mention Danny Richie and Brian Ding, of GR Research and Rythmik Audio respectively. Brian Ding designed his line of subs (which incorporate Mr. Dings patented Direct Servo-Feedback technology) for music reproduction, and Danny Richie and he collaborated on a 12" driver offered with either an aluminum cone (for high volume application, including loud music and/or home theater) or a paper one (the "G" in the model designation of the Rythmik F12G, which uses the paper-cone version of the woofer, refers to GR Research) specifically for music listened to at less than extreme volume, it’s lower mass providing higher low-level resolution.

In addition, they also collaborated on a very unique subwoofer designed specifically for "the highest of high-end music systems"---an open baffle/dipole sub (two 12" woofers mounted in an OB "H-Frame", powered by the Rythmik Servo-Feedback amplifier), the ultimate design for mating with a dipole speaker such as Maggies (and ESL’s, and Ribbons). The GR Research/Rythmik Audio OB/Dipole Sub is, and I say this with the upmost respect, a completely different animal than the Vandersteen, and all other, sub(s). Is the writer of the quoted sentence even aware of GR Research and Rythmik Audio products, or all the other high-end designs now available?

3- "In fact his (Vandersteen) crossover is so ingeniously simple that it is a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way."

It IS simple, and it WOULD be a wonder if nobody else thought of doing it the same way. But they DID, and a long, long time ago! Advanced enthusiasts having been employing a simple 1st order crossover as a high-pass filter since the 1950’s. You don’t really believe no one before Richard Vandersteen thought of something so obvious, do you?! The Dahlquist x/o in the 1970’s used that exact technique---a single capacitor to filter the signal going to the main speakers.

Now, if you’re talking about Richards technique of taking the signal for the sub from the speaker taps of the main power amp, Richard is not the only one doing that either. Both Rythmik Audio and REL offer the same hookup, Rythmik also providing line-level connections.

All of this is not to say that the Vandersteen subs are not very fine products. Far from it---they are great. But they are not the only really good ones available for use in "the highest of high-end music systems". They do have some competition, and may in fact have some which surpass them. There are even Magneplanar fanatics who use the Tympani T-IV bass panels as subs for their MG series Maggies!

noble100's avatar
noble100
1,093 posts
 
imdoc,

     I'm also a Magnepan user but not with quite as good of a model as you own. I've had a pair of older 2.7qrs for about the last 25 yrs  that are rated to go down to 37 hz while your 20Rs are rated as going as low as 25 hz.
     I've been searching for a good bass system to pair with my Magnepans for over 2 decades. The only sub system I've discovered that has very good bass response down to the lowest audible octaves that is more impactful but just as natural, textured, detailed and articulate as the bass my Magnepans produce down to their limits and blends in seamlessly is a Distributed Bass Array System (DBAS).  

    There are actually 2 DBAS that I'm aware of:

1. The Audio Kinesis SWARM which I believe is the original.  It's based on the PHD thesis of an acoustical engineer, Dr.Geddes, on the subject of achieving good and well dispersed bass performance in smaller rooms (as opposed to large venues such as concert halls and auditoriums) and the work of another acoustical engineer, Dr. O'Toole.

2.  The Audio Kinesis DEBRA(Distributed EQ Reflex Array) which is basically the same as the SWARM with minor variations in sub construction that is built and sold by James Romeyn Music and Audio in Utah.  James is a friend and partner of Audio Kinesis owner, Duke LeJeune, and has a licensing agreement with Audio Kinesis to build and sell his version under the Audio Kinesis brand.

     About a year ago I purchased the Audio Kinesis DEBRA  system.Here's a link describing the system:


http://jamesromeyn.com/old-pages/home-audio-gear/dsa-1-0-distributed-subwoofer-array-5-pieces-4k-usd...


Since it is such an ideal system for me and I think it would work well in your system, I provided a link to  the Absolute Sound's 2015 review of the Audio Kinesis SWARM (which awarded it a 'Golden Ear' award for that year) below:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

.

    I can personally attest to the effectiveness of the DEBRA system in my room. I have 6 listening/viewing positions in my combination music and ht system in my living room. Bass response is equally good for music and HT at all 6 positions without the use of acoustic devices (no absorbing or diffusing panels or bass traps) and without any electronic equalization (room analysis/correction equipment, software or eq). I should mention I've never had my system/room analyzed using a mike and software.  

    From my purely subjective perspective, however, I'm confident the results would be good since I spent hours on the setup and critical listening from all six listening positions in my room. I would suggest this type of sub system as a viable alternative for anyone considering investing in one or more quality subs. The system is rated clean at 113 decibels at 20 hz and I've often heard and felt it go this low.  It feels and sounds clean and right but I can't verify the decibels or lack of distortion.

Hope this helped,

  Tim

randy-11
1,913 posts
 
a Moog might go a lot lower than 20 Hz on rock tracks

otherwise, sub 30 Hz sounds are pretty much limited to organ music and cannons (Tch. overture)

I’d bet some DSP testing and room treatments would be much more rewarding, tho maybe an amp that really put out a lot of current into 4 ohms(?? dunno what you have now)

Wendell can give you the factory talk on why to avoid cone based subs and to use a pair of DWMs instead

OTOH, many people are happy with (at least the expensive) subs added to the smaller panels
noble100's avatar
noble100
1,093 posts
 
imdoc,

    Forgot to answer one of your questions:
Whether I thought the $3,000 cost of the  DEBRA was worth the cost?

     Unequivocally, yes.  I honestly can't count the number of times I've been listening to music and the music calls for deeper bass (acoustic, percussion or electronic) and the DBA system just powerfully, naturally and seemingly effortlessly reproduces the lowest octaves and blends so seamlessly with the Magnepans reproducing everything else that the result is a sound stage illusion that  just sounds like a beautifully synchronized realistic whole; like the actual musicians are playing in my living room or as if I've been transported to the venue, depending on the recording.
  Logically I know it's a sound stage illusion but it's uncanny how I perceive the bass, even though it is monaural, as emanating from the proper instruments within this illusionary and 3D sound stage.  It's really quite impressive and enjoyable.  .
   I think paying attention to details and being precise in setting up a DBA is critical to getting good results; things like following the progressive locating procedure for properly positioning each of the 4 subs in the room, using trial and error to set the crossover at the correct hz (I found 40hz worked best in my system),  determining the correct relative volume of the DBAS (in relation to your main speakers) by precise setting of the supplied sub amp's rotary volume control knob (mine is set between the 9 and 10 o'clock position) and whether to run your main speakers full range or use a filter to limit their lower frequency duties (Mine run full range without restriction).

    Fortunately, this rather elaborate setup process only needs to be done well once.  You're able to just enjoy your music with consistently stellar performance until you decide to move or upgrade your main speakers. 

     Lastly, I wanted to mention that you can also construct your own custom DBA by using 4 subs of your own choosing.  However, this is likely to be significantly more expensive than a DEBRA or SWARM complete system with the 'law of diminishing returns' also needing to be considered.

Thanks,
 Tim   
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