Sonic qualities of SET output tubes?

Charles, I did, but that was with completely, totally, absolutely, different speakers! Soundlab M1s with all manner of dramatic impedance swings. 

Bill, 
 Okay I see. Yes I  know the Sound Labs speakers.  Your Crescendos are a  very different scenario. 
Charles 

Grannyring > The trying not exceed 20% of an amp's power was specifically mentioned by Ralph for SET tube amps …. His statement does not include SS, Class D, OTL and other type amps.


Blindjim > thanks a lot. Now that makes more sense. I knew I was missing something. Just like the part on “lower power, better sound”.



saki70 > Have you given any thought to PSET's ? in your area, Where would you go to hear different tube amp demonstrations? Good Luck .


blindjim > thanks. The learning experience continues and that is always enjoyable. Getting there is another story.
Yes. In fact higher output tube amps or PP amps were and are my only exp with tube amps I have owned. They are the first amps I thought about before trying to learn more on the SET platforms, so I might minimize or eliminate a very big mistake.
As well, the PP glass amps just made more sense given the speakers I was admiring or dreaming about. All had or have mostly decent Eff, but low IMP.
The only SET ish amps I’ve heard to date were the Thor TPA30s at. a dealership in Clearwater largo area. Years ago. In a room near my size, they were driving a pr of VR4 JR pretty well. I’ll never forget that sound.
Apart from that joint, there are not any venues I know of nearby at all. Friends in a local club have some tube gear but its not the more prevalent setup. Most there like Panel speakers and Pass amps. There are likely others I’ve not met that may have glass power running. One was using AR lots o watts amp tube monos to drive their panels with, another was using Avant Gard Unos.

My ‘radar’ is on for any and all Triode and Ultralinear amps, INT, MONO or 2ch.



Atmosphere > This is all about distortion, which all amps make so the ’percentage of usable output power’ has to do with the **kinds** of distortion that are particularly objectionable to the human ear. These are the higher ordered harmonics (5th and above, particularly the 7th), IM distortion, and in the case of class D, inharmonic distortion (caused by intermodulations with the scanning frequency; similar to aliasing in digital audio).
Its my opinion and also my experience that four ohms has no place in high end audio (IOW if high quality audio production is in fact the goal). The cables are more critical and all amps sound harsher and less detailed on four ohms as opposed to eight or sixteen all other things being equal.


Blindjim > Whew!! Super. Got it now. Thanks.
Nearly every spkr I’m growing more fond of have 4ohm IMP!! So its appropriate to echo Charleton heston, kind of, “Damn you speaker makers! Damn you all to Hell!” lol


Atmosphere perhaps you could PM me or enter a link to which speakers your exp has shown are amenable to lower powered glass amps. Certainly, yours and perhaps others too.


My usual approach before this thread was to force a #12 foot into a #10 shoe, amp & spkr, respectively. Merely Add more watts to either overcome the low IMP of the spkr and try to avoid .clipping and or distortion, or with easier spkr loads yield better driver control. Control is an often overlooked facet. Its undeniable when listening however, if its absent.


I’d sure like to see a chart that reveals the equivalency between glass watts and SS watts. SET; OTL; PP; etc.

If tube amps could only manage higher damping factors it might make this affair an easier task.


I’m looking at or trying to figure out just which road, and then which block to land on by making one upscale purchase, and be done. Not at all a ‘cost no object’ affair, but then a ‘destination’ for me, may not be a or the destination for you, though we will both wind up with our own destination arrangements. Unless we just can’t leave well enough alone.


It do get complicated once all the factors are taken into account trudging down the road of better sound. Rooms, $$$$, esthetics. Amp & spkr matching. Topologies. Personal preffs. Logistics. Auditions. Sheesh.



charles1dad > The irony is that the vast majority of high End speakers are in the 4 ohm range. I do believe Ralph's assertion that higher speaker impedance is beneficial to all amplifier topologies. It seems many speaker builders would disagree with him given the predominance of 4 ohm speakers in the marketplace.


Blindjim > sure seems like it to me too as nearly every one on my short list is 4 ohms. Over 90DB but still….
And NONE of them are under $14K, several are above that point. Well above it.



wolf_garcia > Silverline Preludes (allegedly 91 db) with 2 REL subs You can simply turn the amp up to test the limits (at a certain point it just loses it's mind… absolute clarity at the levels I choose to listen, and I'm very picky about noise and distortion


blindjim > My previous Silverline Sonata IIIs were relatively an easy spkr to push too. Current iterations in that line up have just lost their ever loving minds with price increases. OMG.
Congrats with the Pre’s & Rels. You bring up a great point saying two subs are in use.



Swampwalker >   It was this whole issue of sounding "loud" when a system should not sound loud when turned up. Rather, the performance should simply swell and grow with greater impact etc....


Blindjim > Illuminating! About exactly what I needed to see/hear. It troubles me that you and I are on about the same wavelength pretty often. In fact, it should concern you even more. Lol


My impression here is semantics. What if we interpose subtlely ‘irritating’ for too loud, or just ‘loud’, or refer to it as ‘‘subliminally grating’ ?

My first forays into putting t together a stereo commonly ran into OK at low levels, above that, not OK.

Loads of factors abound that were influencing those sonic annomolies. Lots. Not merely ‘synergy’.it was a pretty harsh and lengthy learning curve. Thereafter, from this venue, I found all the answers I needed. Latter rigs never showed themselves as anything but ones I could listen to for any length of time.

Presently, it sure looks likely riding down the middle of the tube road is where I’ll land once more…. Moderate power, moderately high eff speakers with an easy IMP… if I feel its doable.

To that end, the main item to avoid IMO is a glass power train that emulates SS sonics. It would be absurd!

Regardless, the info from this thread has so far been in a word, ‘revealing’.



charles1dad > In addition to the VAC REN amplifier, believe that the Atma-Sphere S-30 , M-60 and the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL 40 would serve Blindjim well


blindjim > I’m eternally grateful for any and all mentioned amp options or possibilities as much as thoughtfulness and home work are required to pursue ANY system errection, logistics too play a big part. The greater the budget the more concern there will be for making or introducing errors or an outright failure in synergy.

Of course, one might just stumble into a room and find it all right there but that seems a long shot IMHO. Would be nice, a turn key outfit along with a pretty fair bargain. Done.

Otherwise, its just a best guess scenario. Regularly. You can have all the specs in hand and still it doesn’t butter your bread at the end of the day. Might be very close too! Just no cigar.


Even finding a few possibly desired items in close proximity to each other seems daunting at the moment.



Swampwalker > Of course, you COULD opt for the WAVAC HE-133 150 wpc SETs @ $77K. That would maximize your choices for speakers, if in fact you had any $ left over to buy speakers ;-)


Blindjim > the goal is to get in and out for way less than what those amps run. Way less. The longer I fuss around with it, the lower I want to go $$$ wise. Lol

Given my ‘front ends first’ approach, I’m all about a solid amp selection and a great source choice. Then… very nice spkrs. What ends up happening is a true mystery at the moment. What where and even when are still in the fog.


Naturally, the amp & spkr combo will be reciprocally introduced.

Regardless, my ‘approach’ works. Has worked well. More than once. It will work again.

More will be revealed.

anyone have exp with Pure Audio Project loudspeakers?

has anyone established a reasonably current list of High Eff spkrs anywhere?
All I can think of are: Zu; Coincident; deVor; Avant Gard and some horns, which I sure don't mean to dengrate at all. it is merely their esthetic that is a tad hard to take.

Blindjim,
Here’s are a few more,
Horning
Vaughn Speaker
TonIan Labs
Sonist
Ocellia
Trenner-Friedl (certain models in their line)
Audio Note
Tekton
Coherent Speakers

Charles