How do you determine how much to spend on speakers

A well balanced system is one that never strays too far from neutral, all the components work together as a team, the overall presentation is pleasant and there are minimal conflicts or weak spots that draw attention to themselves.

All of this is done without an individual stand out player, as it would no longer be well balanced or a team effort if that were the case. If one piece were to stand out, the system would no longer be well balanced. It would have a noticeable high point with the equivalent low or lower points.

To use a comparison, system building and body building are not that different. Sinking all of your money / effort into one specific "star player" would be equivalent to exercising one's legs with minimal attention paid to the rest of the body or system. While the legs could easily support the weight of the entire body and do a lot of work, the rest of the body would not be up to performing at the same level when called upon to do so. The end result is that the body would run out of "air" and "energy" while quickly becoming "fatigued". Nor would the highly specialized "star player" legs be able to complete all of the tasks that a well rounded performer would be capable of.

With "star quality" speakers and the associated price tag, your audio system would do the same thing. The speakers would reveal the shortcomings of the signal source and amplification devices feeding them. Kind of like having someone that is far superior in every aspect pointing out all of your weak spots everytime that they see you. Again and again, over and over. While the flaws might be pointed out very fairly and honestly, this would not be much fun nor would it be enjoyable.

From the other point of view, each improvement that you did make might be duly noted, but you would have to make a LOT of improvements EVERYWHERE in order to achieve a level playing surface.

Logic dictates that it would be more intelligent to work every aspect of the body / system equally, making for a well rounded approach. This would provide performance that wasn't seriously lacking in any specific department nor leave you feeling "underwhelmed". While it may not have any specific "stellar" attributes, you could call upon any part of the body / system and feel confident that it would not let you down nor stand out so much that it became irritating.

Keep in mind that when you get TOO much of a good thing, you loose a sense of "balance" and it becomes less palatable with each exposure. The longer you stress the other areas of the system that weren't properly exercised or paid attention to, the more revealing the problem would become.

The bottom line is that my thoughts are: why "x-ray" cheaper / inferior components with high grade speakers when you can achieve something that is much more balanced / well rounded for the same price ? While some would say that this leads to a system of mediocrity, we all have to settle for that at various levels. That is, unless you have taken the "all out assault / never ending funds" approach to system building.

Just my $.02, if it's worth that. Obviously, some will and have disagreed. That's what makes the audio world go round. Sean
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First off, I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to put in their 2 cents. Though it will take me a while to read and fully benefit from all of these post, nevertheless they are greatly appreciated. After reading quite a few of these responese, I came across a post which mentioned something about the law of diminishing returns. So a better question to ask know is, from anyones experience typically what price range does one target to get the most for their money? Meaning, is a $1000 cd player twice as good as a $500 cd player? Or is it only %10 better? Can this idea be applied to speakers, amps and so forth. In addition to this question, does anyone out there have any experience with trying to "match" components that "sonically" or "electronically" complement each other quite well. Aside from trial and error, is there any other way of doing this? Is it possible for one come up with a conclusion stating figuratively for example that, Classe components work quite well with Rotel components. Again, any advice or two cents worth is always appreciated.

Thanks

The road to perdition. See my second post above. Your questions touch on the subjects of many many threads here. There are no answers, only opinions. But I will tell you this: it's a bad idea to try to make up for one component's deficiencies by matching it with another's.

Many a story has been told here of someone having a system, preamp 1, amp 1, cdp 1, speakers 1, and then "upgrading" it to preamp 2, amp 2, cdp 2, speakers 2, and then again and again, only to find that in reconnecting amp 1 (which he had stored in a closet) to preamp 5, cdp 5 and speakers 5, the sound was much better.

Go find speakers that you like and can live with. Ask the local hifi dealers for help in selecting inexpensive electronics to drive them and a competent cd player.

Or, go to the Good Guys and buy one of those little minisystems.

Paul

Krazeeyk: The law of diminishing returns kicks in VERY early: A $200 CD player is not twice as good as a $100 CD player, and it gets even worse from that point up. That doesn't mean that a $2000 CD player isn't "worth it." Worth is an individual judgment, and if it floats your boat, that's all that matters.

Speakers are an obvious exception. Amps are too, to the extent that more $ buys more power (real power, not spec power). Ditto analog, but you don't care about that.

I suggested above that you pick your speakers first, but here's an alternative approach: Get yourself a basic set of electronics: a 100-200 watt integrated amp, and a respectable CD player (a Rotel 971 or the Arcam equivalent would be the bottom end), then take a long time on speakers, and don't actually commit to anything until you've heard them at home. Once you have the speakers, go back and reconsider your electronics. You'll lose a few hundred bucks on the deal if you decide to trade your electronics for something better, but you'll wind up with a great system--for you. (And note that I haven't mentioned cables.)

-IMHO-
I'll add a few more things to be filled in by some of the other regular folks here who have more cards in their deck than I do.( mylife: Sometimes I feel like I'm playing solitare with a deck with all the aces missing)

Avoid Retail Prices: A couple have said you need to buy retail if you listen/audition in a retail store. I would buy used equipment I haven't heard based on sound advise before I paid full retail price for anything (I'm not only clueless but cheap too!). I admire the ethics here but you will take a huge hit if you pay retail prices. I don't think it's possible to put together a really nice music system for 5k paying retail. In fact, I just saw a system advertised for 11.9k retail in the local paper that is a complete dog - multi channel dog. .

Home Theater or Music: Not mentioned above at all. You note that you are into "HI-FI". Music or home theater? Just my opinion but the industry is really pushing HT. At your price point (I think at almost any price point) Stereo two channel is the way to go. If you spread your $$ out to six speakers and then ask the amp to handle all of that you are giving up A LOT of quality when it comes to listening to music. Buy a two channel system.

Law of diminishing returns (general rules are made to be broken): Not going to break down component by component but I think (without going into vinyl) you are approaching the point where return on the dollar starts to diminish very quickly. You get a really nice bang for the buck system in the 5-7k range if you buy smart. Also, with regard to components remember: general rules are made to be broken. If someone says that generally returns start to fall off at 1500 for solid state amps and you have a great deal infront of you for 700, well take it. Sometimes the industry puts out a winner (the little NAD 370 -there are others too!) at a lower price. Take advantage of it. General rules about what you have to pay for good stuff are broken everyday by folks here at audiogon and elsewhere.


The old " It's Your ears argument": Out of respect (lots of kind folks here) lots of folks will tell you to listen, listen, listen. The pitfall is that if you are new to high end, your ears might not be all that good at first and may change in time. I know mine have improved (or at least changed) with listening. I really remember (some years ago) running from venue to venue trying to distinguish the speaker I heard at store X, run with ABC equipment in a 14x 31 room, to what I heard at Store C, run on EFG equipment, in a 14 x 14 room. Not really productive. That's why some have said bring the speakers home. This is also hard to do logistically and it is very hard to make close calls when you listen to speakers hours and days and usually weeks apart. For most of us it involves some listening, an educated guess, and then a leap of faith.

Speakers: Buy the best you can get!!! Speakers have a huge job to do: Electrical energy is transformed to magnetic energy which is transformed to mechanical energy which is transformed to acoustic energy. There isn't this much going on anywhere else in the system. Some folks have suggested spending as little as $1,500 on speakers and IMHO that is sonic suicide. Unles you get some really exceptional deal/value out of proportion to what you spend.

I like Northcreek. Go to Northcreek.com and look at Rhythm kits just for the fun of it. Reading the site will give you a little education about issues in speakers anyway. A last pitch. They have externally mounted crossovers (along with the handmatching of the drivers to within .5db something almost nobody else does and certainly nobody at this price). This means you can fine tune the speaker, especially the tweeter w/o having to tear the speaker apart - just open the crossover compartment on the back of the speaker and add a resistor to the tweeter's signal path. You can add in .5db steps. What a Country! It is also very easy to add a sub later if you are a bass freek.

Avoid stupid Mistakes. You can probably do this simply by following the conversation here at Audiogon on different points and paying attention to what brands get good reviews over a few weeks. No state secrets here.

Matching Components: Books are written about technical aspects of each component and I am not smart enough to write one and you probably do not want to spend the time to become an electrical engineer before you buy. A couple obvious and common mistakes to avoid. I'll let some other folks give others as this is already way to long.
1)Buy a speaker that presents a fairly constant load to the amp. This makes the amp's job lots easier. The speaker is an inductor and acts like a resistor in the circuit (big over simplification but hey). The nominal impedence that is listed on most speakers is very misleading. Impedence always varies with frequency (and other things)and sometimes the manufactureer gives rather dubious figures. Make sure the load is good through the entire frequency 20-20kHz. This makes Amp's job easier. Well designed speakers do this. 2) Try to buy a fairly effecient speaker. One recent post inquired about buying an amp for a Paradigm 100 which was rated by Paradigm as about 90db (trying to remember here). An astute poster noted that Paradigm's measurements were off and that it really performed in the low 80s according to independant testing. Big difference in what you want from an amp - need more power to make them sing! The N Creek speaker is a true 90.5 (over 90 is considered quite effecient) and presents about as constant a load as you find. You will not need a huge expensive muscle bound amp to make them get up and go.
3) Amp: Watts is not where it's at. If it were every K-Mart amplifier would be a winner. Again these can change with frequency (and other things). Look for "continuous" watts or RMS(Root Mean Square) when you inquire about the amps power and remember "power" is two separate things (at least). If you know anything about electricity you know the "Pie" rule. Amp's power is 2 sided (at least) Power=current(I) times Voltage(e). Make sure your speaker can deliver some current when the time arises.( See one above - Impedence (in Ohms) will fall at some frequencies (lower) and the amp has to be able step up to the job.)

If you get a speaker that is fairly effecient and presents a fairly constant load and an amp that can push a little current you will have a nice match generally, or at least you have avoided a couple common mistakes.

I'll let someone else tell you why you want class A operation because my insomnia is no longer keeping me awake.

Good luck and let us know what you buy will you !