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Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Hi All.

Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.

I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.

Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?

All opinions welcome.

And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.

Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
mattnshilp
audioengr
3,282 posts
 

shadorne - agreed, however, the devil is always in the details. How to make it sound like analog and not electronic.

Upsampling has its own issues, particularly in hardware. There are always compromises made in these designs. My own reclocker is extremely good, rejecting almost all incoming jitter and delivering a low-jitter upsampled output, but when compared to my best USB or Ethernet playback which is not upsampled, the non-upsampled tracks win for best sound quality. Both scenerios use essentially the same clock and power supplies/regulators.

This is precisely why I don't put an upsampler in my DAC, as so many other DACs do.

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

ctsooner's avatar
ctsooner
2,104 posts
 
I"ve owned DAC's with both and so far I"ve yet to hear an upsampled that I enjoy.  I've heard fairly large (For audio terms) differences.  I've had a lot of DAC's in the house too and most are talked about in this forum (not the tube ones other than Aesthetix, which is one of the most under rated companies in all of audio for all their gear).  JMHO
shadorne's avatar
shadorne
7,333 posts
 
Well mathematically there is nothing wrong with upsampling and it measures much better in most cases due to the less aggressive filter and because higher sample rates tend to improve DAC linearity. Perhaps it is the way inter-sample overs are handled on upsampling DACs - since most pop rock digital music has peaks greater than 0 dbfs that cause errors in any DAC that upsamples without having extra bit depth to handle these peaks. This link below describes one error mechanism (perhaps there are others) that begin to explain why upsampling on most DACs sounds worse to you.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/tagged/inter-sample-overs

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/intersample-overs-in-cd-recordings

Benchmark make the following claim about DAC chips

"Every D/A chip and SRC chip that we have tested here at Benchmark has an intersample clipping problem!"

So unless manufacturers make an effort to find a solution to this oversampling DAC chip limitation then you have at least one pervasive problem with these DACs - this might be why Georgehifi dislikes all of these designs versus ladder DAC with no upsampling. Unlike many small effects at the LSB which arguably might not be audible, this occurs inter-sample over errirs occur at the MSB - so for sure it is easily audible on most pop/rock CD’s produced in the last 20 years.

This red noisy signal sure looks easily audible versus the corrected green curve to me,

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0321/7609/files/Inter-Sample_Overs.JPG?v=1469682095
audioengr
3,282 posts
 

So if this inter-sample overs effect happens only on peaks, why do I hear differences even in low-level signals?

I think the SQ issue with upsamplers, albeit small, has to do with hardware implementation of upsamplers.  Doing it is S/W seems to deliver better SQ.  I use Izotope, supposedly the best S/W resampler, and the SQ is usually great, better than the original.

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

shadorne's avatar
shadorne
7,333 posts
 
@audioengr 

All the problems will be low level as the digital hash from inter-sample overs may not be audible until just after the transient. A bit like amplifier clipping where you don't hear problems on the transient itself as much as the distortion over everything else musical going on (harshness in the mid range in particular).

 The last link is to a plot showing what looks like typical low level clipping distortion - distortion is low (about  60 to 100 db down) but it is broadband right across the entire spectrum which makes it very likely to be audible as harshness or glare. Notice that there is actually a distortion peak at 80Hz - and we all know that an 80Hz tone lasts an eternity compared to mid range stuff - so even if the transient is a cymbal crash at 11 KHz - you have distortion smeared broadband over at least 1/80 secs (1 cycle of 80 Hz) or more than 12 msec (which is a lot).


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