Combine hard to drive speakers with most tube amps and you have a response that is all over the place.Yeah EQ'd to the sh**-***se, some call this tube sound or euphonic's. I call it an equaliser.
Cheers George
Which watts are the right watts in SS amps?
Hello Sports Fans!
More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.
Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.
An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.
I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.
After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.
I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.
Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.
The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.
I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.
However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.
IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.
I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.
Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.
I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.
Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.
A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.
So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?
Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?
Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.
Please, share your experiences if possible.
Tanks muchly!
More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.
Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.
An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.
I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.
After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.
I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.
Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.
The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.
I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.
However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.
IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.
I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.
Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.
I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.
Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.
A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.
So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?
Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?
Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.
Please, share your experiences if possible.
Tanks muchly!
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- 114 posts total
Do you know if the Sabrinas and later model Sash’s have similar IMP traces as the Wilson’s you just mentioned here? Both are hard to drive, not quite as bad as the Alexia, but both to sound at their very best in the bass would need an amp with good amount of current ability. https://www.stereophile.com/images/416WiSabfig1.jpg https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/710Wilfig1.jpg I’m hearing from this person and that, they have listend to the Sabrina and Sasha with very modest power amps, even < 100 wpc., tube amps and really enjoyed what they heard.Yes it would sound good, I'm not saying it wouldn't. But he's not hearing them at their best with an amp with a bit of current. for the load they represent in the bass, that would make most tube behave like an equaliser (tone control). Cheers George |
The more I've dug into amp designs and uses the less important watts seem to be. A watt is a composite value derived from voltage and current that really means very little and only vaguely describes an amp. I've come to a point of not thinking of speakers as "hard" or "easy" to drive. Some should be driven by voltage sources and some should be driven by current sources. I think arguments about current delivery ability and such neglect consideration of the more nuanced nature of a circuit's topology and how it's delivering voltage and current. I think everybody should build an amp and genuinely understand what every transistor, resistor, and cap is doing. Just building something simple like the 5 watt ACA amp is cheap and educational. $300 for a pair of Pass monoblocks! How do you go wrong? |
Hey @kosst_amojan Interesting point about speaker requirements. Is there some speaker performance or design spec that signals when a voltage vs a current source is preferable? How about with amps...is there a way to identify current vs voltage delivery designs? Any power amp is going to deliver both volts and amps; how does one recognize the type? Is it by the ratio of V to A? Where is the dividing line? |
Hi Ghosthouse, A theoretically ideal voltage source has an output impedance of zero, and a theoretically ideal current source as an output impedance that is infinite. Neither exists in practice, of course. However most (but not all) solid state amps have an effective output impedance that is low enough in relation to speaker impedance to enable them to be considered as voltage sources for practical purposes. Provided, of course, that they are operated within the limits of their maximum voltage, current, power, and thermal capabilities. On the other hand, tube amps have output impedances that are usually significant in relation to speaker impedances, and also tend to differ widely among different designs. Consequently tube amps fall at various points on a continuum between ideal voltage source and ideal current source. An ideal voltage source will maintain an output voltage that is constant as a function of load impedance (again, as long as it is operated within its maximum voltage, current, power, and thermal capabilities). Per Ohm’s Law, if the load impedance is purely resistive the current that is supplied will equal that output voltage divided by the load resistance. It gets more complicated when the load has a significant inductive or capacitive component. An ideal current source will maintain an output current that is constant as a function of load impedance, and per Ohm’s Law the voltage it will supply into a purely resistive load will equal that current multiplied by the resistance, as long as it is operated within its maximum capabilities. And again, it gets more complicated when the load has a significant inductive or capacitive component. Best regards, -- Al |
- 114 posts total