How much do I need to spend to get a preamp that sounds better than no preamp?

My point was that one way or another, you do need gain, no matter what you want to call it, or which box you think it should be in, or not be in. Most amps have 2 or 3 stages of gain, even if you think there’s only one.

Also, a volume control will add noise, crosstalk, and phase error. You don’t need gain to screw things up. And some volume controls do more damage than multiple amp stages would.

Ben - you’re welcome! Let me know how it goes.

That's kinda my point, too. You're getting it somewhere. Might as well do it in the best environment possible. 

You can just put the gain control at some random point like 3:00, but is that the optimal point? Not clear. One would need to know a lot about the circuit design to make that call. I’m not surprised AI isn’t getting involved in the answer, as it can be quite complicated. It’s also why few amplifiers actually have gain controls (except for vintage ones, and that was because of the wide variety of speaker efficiencies back then).

I would have thought the least amount noise would come if the master is at or near full for loud listening, then the gain level if it is controlling the "tube gain" it’s then only increasing any noise to a minium level, as tube noise/distortion increases at the same rate as the gain will.

Cheers George

My AI seems to sound best with the gains at full volume. Is this possible? Never tried it before. Always leave them at 12 o'cock.

Just bought the McIntosh C47 preamp, very similar in performance to the C52 that was reviewed in the latest TAS. Very nice, much better than going straight from my dac to the Classe monoblocks. Plus I needed  preamp since I also have a tt and a cd/SACD player. When Going straight from the dac into the amp, the sound seemed lifeless. The preamp has made the SQ come alive, more spacious and the instruments are more articulated/distinct.