1. Home
  2. tech-talk
  3. 135904-110926

Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


michaelgreenaudio
Post removed 
prof
1,741 posts
 
jf47t,

Ha, you are up having fun. I’m up working! (Just peeking into the forum for a mental break here and there).

Sounds great. I’d loved to have heard what you heard.

Though I’m still left in the dark about the question I asked. I know Michael’s thoughts about getting the best out of different recordings.

But what I was asking about is Michael saying people aren’t "doing the hobby" ...or "faking it" as he has put it earlier.

I don’t think Michael believes in right or wrong, only growth vs settling for.


But that still leaves me unenlightened as to who would be not "doing the hobby" or "faking it."  Since those are the terms in which Michael has been putting things - and they obviously sound negative - I'm trying to figure out what that actually means in practice.

Again, I wouldn’t want to disparage anyone else in terms of what they enjoy doing - or not doing - in the hobby, so I’m unsure why Michael is describing people’s involvement in such negative terms. Is the person who is actually happy with his system...."not doing the hobby" or....faking it? (Because...he has settled for something he finds pleasing and doesn’t feel the need to keep tweaking? Whereas Michael thinks this is stopping "growth"? What exactly is the purpose of "growing" if not to reach the point most people want to reach, which is when they are satisfied in mostly listening to the music?)

I mean, I get if one wants to point out that some people settle sooner along the way in setting up a high end system, whereas others will keep looking for every possible way to keep improving and tweaking. But what I don’t get is disparaging either one, putting one in a camp of "not doing/faking."

Given what I described in my previous post about how I approach my system, would you describe me as "not doing" the hobby? Or "faking it?"


michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
643 posts
 

Hi jf47t & prof, can I jump in.

It was fun indeed tonight!

Not doing the hobby and faking it.

Not doing the hobby is when someone speaks as if they have some knowledge on something yet they personally have never done it.

Faking it is the same thing. They will make comments about a subject and yet have never really explored it.

Back to the capacitor thing for a moment. The reason I asked you if you knew the difference between those two caps is so I could see how experienced you were with the sonic differences between audio pieces. Prof some people swear they can’t hear the differences between caps. That to me is a disqualifier for me to want to talk to them about the sound differences. Same goes for the ties snipped from the caps. That’s one of the things I did today to get jf47t response to.

So again back to the caps, I snipped the ties and Jay heard the difference and was able to describe it pretty right on. Now lets say someone said that’s impossible. That would tell me one of 3 things which I think the tunees have already stated. One the system has blockage and isn’t able to let through the changes. Two, the ties were never snipped and the person is just "faking" their answer. Or 3 they are unable to hear the change. Fact is, the change did take place and Jay and others here who have gone and done this experiment while this thread was going on heard the difference and reported it to me. I’ve taken my time responding to you because I wanted to heard from folks who actually "Did" the experiment.

So here’s where the walk and talk comes in. The guys who are walking on that particular topic are the ones who took the time to engage in the activity themselves. There were 6 guys 1 gal who were reading this and actually snipped the ties on both the caps and wires and took the time to report to me their findings, all heard a difference. Some of them have decided to take further steps in tuning. Where the talk would come in is all these posts on this thread meant to derail or be a distraction. I would call all those with the intent to derail, troll or just old farts needing attention "fakes". They were fakes on this thread and no doubt being fakes on other threads. These are the guys who are here to only hear themselves talk and or to start trouble. The people who are "doing" on this and other forums are people who often talk about music, are open minded and who can call out a lonely person or internet troll. Nothing wrong with being lonely, but trying to derail something good by painting a picture of bad is "fake" and done by those who don’t do the hobby usually.

Now prof I understand you came on this thread to try to make it look like I was being negative, but I was being real and still am. If someone doesn’t like this including you, no need to post on this thread other than saying once you don’t get it or agree with it. But when you say I’m being evasive over and over it shows signs of trolling and stalking. Or as you said Dog & Bone. If I’m only doing this to bait you with a bone you’ve fallen for it again, and will respond as such. But prof my mission here was to point out the difference between people who try stuff and people who talk and act as if they do try stuff. I’ve covered this topic forward and backward, up side down and right side up, left to right and back to front. I’ve even provided a real time "doing" field trip. It’s up to the reader to decide if I meant any kind of harm by suggesting that folks not give up on trying simple tuning tips and if folks hadn’t tried so hard to troll by now we would have been into all kinds of tuning tips for people to try. And I’m sure folks like Geoff and others would have added to the list. Sometimes prof it’s smarter to let the grass grow a little before cutting it. You got so intent on schooling me that you became angry when I didn’t want to respond the way you wanted it to go. Sometimes prof you have to let the stew cook slow and not be in such a hurry.

For me this is a successful thread because listeners are "doing". I hope years from now they will keep on doing. All the other stuff my friend was just talk.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


tjbhuler's avatar
tjbhuler
33 posts
 
Hi jf47t ,

Wow must have been awesome experiencing what MG did and how he did it firsthand.  Wish I  was staying near to him and have the convinience to learn and work on my system with him around lol!

Even me staying thousands of miles away have had good success with my system via emails and from his forums but seeing him working up a system is definately the best expereice that one can ever get.  What you said about settling in is something that I have noticed and experience too. 

"Where he started and where he ended up at was more than any amp or speaker change I've ever
witnessed."

This is the exact thoughts and experience I had and have mentioned on this thread initially. A good sounding setup has to do more than just having good equipments. Money spent doesn't need to reach an exorbitant level. A simple setup with the ways of tuning can get you there and deliver amazing results. 

Michael has developed ways to get ones system up to another level. Its just how open and how far are you willing to listen and try it out. For me after a while getting the hang of it and practising makes it easier to understand what Michael is saying. 
amg56's avatar
amg56
666 posts
 

I am sorry Michael. There are elements in life and hardware that logic either accepts with blind faith or it questions and asks why?

Why was Jesus able to walk on water? People accept the fact that he did, yet logically its impossible (unless the water was ice).

Would a person walk off a cliff because someone simply said "don't worry, you won't fall"? Logic and every shrieking intuition would say NO!

Your argument still fails the logic test. I am not going into my system to modify it because someone told me just do it, it will be great afterwards. I would need to know why the change happens, how does it happen and by how much can a person expect the change to be? Can't you see that the logic test has not been proven with your post. You may tell me 100 people snipped their ties, but WHY does this benefit happen, what is the science behind it? If you cannot explain this, you have no right telling people to do it.

Michael, until you are able to explain this, you remain in snake oil territory and you are still expecting blind acceptance of your preaching.

More to discover