2. tech-talk
  3. 135904-110926

Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


michaelgreenaudio
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
643 posts
 

Hi Tomcy6

you said

"Hi Michael, Would you please have a couple of the clients, or walkers, to use your term, that you connected with here post their experiences with you and tuning? Preferably someone who has some history on Audiogon, like being a member for more than one day, or having posted something here before, or having bought or sold something here."

Tomcy6

There actually have been some who have posted, even on this thread, but like myself I don’t picture a lot of Tunees as fitting in here as posters. They’re more than happy to help someone learn about Tuning but I would be surprised to see them get involved in some of the other sidetrack-ish stuff here. I think they feel comfortable contacting me or each other but draw their line at what they call "waste of time posting" here. I would describe Tunees as people who have moved past trying to prove something, and more just having fun doing and learning.

tomcy6

"How much do your services cost? Will you sleep on my couch or do I have to put you up at a nice hotel? How long will it take for me to be able to walk on my own? What if you take apart my components and I don’t like the results? Answers to these questions would be really helpful for anyone considering your services. Could we please get some clear, straight answers about what you are offering here and at least some ballpark figures for the cost?"

mg

That’s actually kind of funny because it’s pretty accurate. I’ve been on audio call since I was a teenager and have slept in almost every possible place you can imagine. Before any of this audiophile business venturing I was on tour in music non-stop full time. There have been times in my life where I have had several homes at one time in different parts of the world.

How much do my services cost? Depends on the types of jobs. On TuneLand it’s free because if I do something that is public it ends up being good promo. My consulting pricing ranges from per drawing, per hour, per project or retainer. Most audiophile clients go with retainer or free. You can get the amounts from me directly if you want.

Will you sleep on my couch or do I have to put you up at a nice hotel? As I said earlier I’ve done all of the above, but I personally don’t like to travel anymore. Depending on what part of the world you live in we might have a Tunable Room for you to visit though. And thank God for the internet and modern communication.

How long will it take for me to be able to walk on my own? I have two answers here. If your talking Tuning the MG way there’s a basic step by step program of sorts where you can jump on board at any speed you want. It’s an individual thing. I have some guys who have jumped into tuning like they were born to tune and others who have one foot in the HEA and the other in Tuning. A good analogy would be musical instruments owning, playing and mastering. It all comes down to your own desire to go as far as you want.

What if you take apart my components and I don’t like the results? LOL, another funny question. I actually have had quite a number who have got me involved in that process personally. Those projects end up being lifetime journeys for both me and the listener, most who end up being very good friends or even family. Mostly people explore by doing themselves with me as a guide or another Tunee as a guide. TuneLand really comes in handy with this. The, you don’t like the results, is a question I’ve never been in on more than encouraging or helping someone get to "their" sound. It’s not "MG’s" sound my clients go after. I have a "method of tuning" but it’s more about you becoming the master of your own method.

Could we please get some clear, straight answers about what you are offering here and at least some ballpark figures for the cost? Absolutely most certainly. I have already started a thread here on "the method of tuning" which someday I may be able to get rolling in a meaningful way. But, as you can see on this thread getting to that meaningful way may or may work out with this particular forums personality. It’s much easier to do on a forum like TuneLand where the people are already in the exploring state of mind. Here? That remains to be seen.

thanks for the questions

Michael Green

Post removed 
kosst_amojan
2,095 posts
 
I'm no electrical engineer, but do I really need to point out the obvious? Power line transformers? Where you're at on the grid? The wiring in your house? All the products Mike sells on his website? And now you all want to talk about everything working as one harmonious system while the vast majority of you haven't even bothered to voice and optimize your amp to your speakers and room? How many of you have even checked the DC offset on your amp or pre-amp? Maybe I'm crazy, but WAY before I spent $1000 on some cables I'm going to have the gear as optimized as possible. I'm certain people here spend that kind of money on cables and gizmos to make minor alterations to the sound while I'm just over here turning a pot 15 or 20 degrees and getting the exact same result. I do NOT understand why people think like that, and if somebody can explain it to me, I'm genuinely curious to know. 
No insult to anybody out there, but when the conversation goes in the direction of tuning all the applicable forces and factors, but absolutely NO talk goes on about doing something with the actual gear as a starting point, the whole conversation looks completely upside down to me. It looks to me like the presumption is that the gear itself is assumed to be in some state of perfection so there's nothing left to do except TUNE THE POWER GRID?!?! Risk burning your house down chasing that last once of nirvana? Like I said, I'm no electrical engineer, but I know enough about power supplies to know that their primary purpose is to output direct current in a manner as indifferent to the input source as possible. But.... instead of modifying the power supply to be more indifferent to the characteristics of your own mains power, we're here talking about running mains power through undersized wire gauges? I can't possibly be the only one who sees the inverted logic of that reasoning. 
So far as I can tell, pretty much every "mod" or "tweak" boils down to being some device or method to achieve a pleasing distortion signature where your sitting. The tuning gizmos. The cables. The speakers. The amps. All of it. Doesn't it make more sense to get the basic gear achieving that goal before doing crazy things like running mains power through 20g wire? Or buying $150 fuses? Or $2000 cables? Or filling a room with furniture and fixtures? I guess if all that stuff trips your trigger, go for it. But I'm telling ya, there's more effective ways of getting to that goal. How wires and traces are routed in your pre-amp make a LOT more difference than a lot of the stuff folks think is so very important. 
Perspective.... I feel like it's been totally lost. Folks who don't even know what kind of resistors their amp has are debating the most nuanced characteristics of a piece of wire or a block of wood. I don't understand that. Which one is really the more meaningful "walk"?
mitch2
1,911 posts
 
Whoa.....resistors, capacitors, power supplies....how can these possibly be more important to sound quality than wood blocks, audiophile fuses, and skinny power cords?  Sheesh, just when you get the cows corralled, one breaks the fence.
analogluvr
800 posts
 
Lol couple of great posts there guys, and you hit the nail on the head kosst. 
 The thing is, unfortunately 99% of these guys have their mind made up and it'll never change. I think Elizabeth mentioned earlier on in this thread, or one of the other ones about snake oil, that it's a herd mentality. She's absolutely right.  These guys that believe in the snake oil magic voodoo will never change as they don't wanna admit they are wrong, they don't wanna admit the emperor has no clothes. 
 I questioned the veracity of Elizabeth's  claim that she can hear the difference between different electrical receptacles. Well if that actually were the case her preamplifier and amplifier must be the biggest pieces of junk in the solar system!   The power supplies must be the worst ones ever! But then the Inference  is that she has much better hearing than I do, hearing that can even detect things that measurements can't. Then in a different thread I learned that Elizabeth is 70 years old. I am 43 with very very good hearing. I've always worn ear protection when I should. But now I'm supposed to believe that her hearing is much better than mine?   come on!I've mentioned in other places that I used to be one of those guys. I've bought expensive power cables, audio file fuses and other bits of snake oil. Then I embarked on a journey of DIY. I built things, I read things, I learned things.   I admit that I was mislead in that earlier period of my life. Now I'm selling or have sold most of the snake oil off.    I don't understand why other folks find it so difficult to admit they were wrong or at least question and look into things a little further.People accuse me of being a troll why cant I leave well enough alone and respect their opinion. It's because it angers me that people are profiting off of this nonsense fraudulent stuff. If someone new reads this thread I want them to pause and question things a little bit. I wish I had read more of the truth when I was younger. 
More to discover