Pheonix Engineering Road Runner

lewm

... If you pick up a DD at a garage sale or from your uncle’s closet in unknown condition don’t assume that because it “works” you are getting its best performance. And then don’t think you know how they “all” sound, please.

Just to be clear, I bought my DP-80 brand new from a Denon dealer, and installed it in a VPI two-arm base. (That was before VPI made its own turntables.) The DP-80 was a very, very good table and I enjoyed it for years. But I think the very best belt drives sound better. Much better.

But one more thing about belt drive aficionados does irk me. That is, they have no problem claiming they can hear the servomechanism of a direct drive turntable hunting, yet most are eager to acquire a speed controller for their a belt drive turntables, a device that  itself relies upon a feedback mechanism to maintain constant speed.

Sorry, you're mistaken. Most speed controllers, such as the VPI SDS and ADS and many others, are not servo controlled. The Phoenix Falcon/Roadrunner product was an exception.

Cleeds 

The DP80 is a fantastic machine, in its original form the only setback  as I see it was the pot metal pan they and the other models I use as donors were mounted on.  Once you get them out of that their stellar performance really shines through. Here is an example https://pbnaudio.com/pbn-dp80/ 

To me these machines sound much better than any belt drive which to me has a sluggish sound.

Melm,  That you postulate that you can hear the servo mechanism working , is probably because you want to - it does not mean its there.

The same reason that people "hear" differences in Fuses etc, to me this is pure BS.  They hear it because they want to hear it.

As far as associate equipment used with these magnificent tables the list is long, currently I have in rotation 2 each DN308 one with a Triplanar U12 carrying a Lyra Atlas, the other one have a Origin Live Enterprise C Tonearm carrying a Lyra Olympos.   A DP8- Professional with a SME 4.5 carrying a Ortofon A90.  I got a EMT950 a few weeks ago - restoring that one now. Hopefully a Denon DP100 will be in the stable soon as well.

https://www.facebook.com/peter.noerbaek/videos/10156654485509512/

We have by the way made 5 each DP7 tables for Lyra in Japan, three with the mighty SAT tonearm, and Two that are used in production with Auddio  Technica tonearms on the right side Ikeda on the left side

https://pbnaudio.com/pbn-dp7/

Good Listening

Peter 






 

cleeds, What in your opinion are the "very best" belt drives? For me, the very best belt drive turntables cost at least $25,000, new.  Once you get up to that price point and above, you can buy some nice BD machines.  I have less than that tied up in four DD turntables, total.

Did you mean to imply by your response as regards the Phoenix Engineering products vs other outboard devices for BD turntables (which probably should not be called "controllers", since only the Phoenix and maybe also the new SOTA devices, actually do control speed when it varies over the course of playing an LP), that the PE stuff sounds inferior to a VPI SDS (for one example you chose to mention)?  Those without an external feedback mechanism like the RR still do employ a sort of feedback; you set the speed under a load or no load condition, and the controller relies upon the constancy of the AC frequency to keep the motor operating at a certain speed, always based on the pre-set condition. There's feedback going on, but it's referenced to AC frequency (or I suppose some other internal reference), and it is inflexible for responding to the variation in load due to stylus drag, etc.  Most listeners of my acquaintance do not love the VPI SDS, but I cannot say I have any opinion, since I never heard it.  I own a Walker Audio Motor Controller; it doesn't hold a candle to the PE stuff, which I also own and use to drive my Lenco.  Most reviewers said the WAMC was superior to the SDS.

So we have $10k tables that can’t regulate their speed. Then someone is making a $300 box that’s nothing but a spedo and doesn’t regulate speed.

I guess im shocked but then people will buy a $1500 McIntosh clock made from $15 worth of parts. So I guess maybe I’m not shocked.

Clearly I don’t fit into this racket/hobby

lewm

cleeds, What in your opinion are the "very best" belt drives? For me, the very best belt drive turntables cost at least $25,000, new ...

I'm not a member of the component-of-the-month club, so I really can't make a recommendation about today's best belt drive turntables. I use a VPI TNT Series III and haven't heard anything better - regardless of technology - since I bought it new back in the '90s. And I've been to the VPI house and heard all of their latest offerings, including the DD. (I did add an SDS to my VPI, which originally came with the older PLC controller.)

Did you mean to imply by your response ... that the PE stuff sounds inferior to a VPI SDS.

No, I didn't mean to imply that, but the one PE I did hear was not impressive. But that's just one data point, so I don't put much value on it.

Those without an external feedback mechanism like the RR still do employ a sort of feedback; you set the speed under a load or no load condition, and the controller relies upon the constancy of the AC frequency to keep the motor operating at a certain speed, always based on the pre-set condition. There's feedback going on, but it's referenced to AC frequency ....

To me, feedback implies a loop, so I don't consider that the PE Phoenix or VPI SDS units rely on feedback. They simply use the line frequency as a reference, as any typical synchronous motor does.

Most listeners of my acquaintance do not love the VPI SDS ...

I have no issue at all with the SDS, and I like that you can set the drive voltage to your preference ... although the detail on that isn't explained in the user manual.