2. cables
  3. 140503-78269

Skeptic or just plain hard headed

So I purchased a pair of Morrow Audio phono cables. These are the PH3 with the Eichmann connectors. Wanted to start there to see if MA cables will be a viable option for my system.I think my story is not so unique to others who have purchased MA cables. So no need to go into the hu hum of burn-in in regards to MA cables, and how things sound bad at first, then gets better,  then excellent...yada yada yada. I know the story about this product.  I simply am one who is not a believer in electronics break in periods, or battery packs on cables, etc... Regardless of what side of the fence you are on in regards to that Im NOT trying to start that debate again please.. Anyway. After reading several reviews of the MA cables and understanding that most agreed that the cables needed a substantial burn-in time, and that the cables would not sound its best until this happens I decided to give them a try. Thinking ok lets get a jump on the burn-in period (if the concept is true). I paid for the 2 day burn-in service from MA. What I didn't expect is that when I got the cable it would sound as bad as it did in comparison to my existing name brand cable (not getting into that either, not relevant). I thought well the cable might not quite be up to snuff with all this talk about burn-in (if its true) but not that much of a difference.  I mean as soon as I dropped the needle on the record I immediately heard a profound difference in sound stage and clarity degridation. Needless to say this cable was destined to be returned to MA for a full refund and my thinking was "they are crazy if I am going to trade my cable for this cable" So I decided to give MA a call to setup the return. Talked with Mike Morrow (very nice guy by the way) and we had our differences in what I should expect out of his product. Now my Mother always told me that I have a hard head.. I heard that growing up all my life, and when you couple that with skepticism it makes a pretty, well lets just say not a very fun person to have a debate with lol. However Mike insisted that if I return the cable that I would be missing out on the fruit they would bare after 400 hours of break in. 400 hours??? really!. Oh at that point I was really ready to return them. I told all my friends "Mike must be nuts" (no offense Mike) no way am I going to wait a year to hear what this cable is capable of, AND I do not have any way to expedite the process...at least I thought I didn't until I found an old sound bar I don't use anymore with analog inputs. Ok I know you pro MA and  pro cable burn-in folks are chomping at the bit. Im almost done. Take your hands off the keyboard for just a few more lines. 

So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so?  I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of  continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.

I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL.  For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS. 

For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete.  However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.  

I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results. 

happy listening!!

-Keith
barnettk
barnettk OP
295 posts
 
@aberyclark 

"I'm sure it gets worse as you go up the food chain. Imagine trying to return $4,000 cables and the pushback you'll get?

Oh man I bet your correct.  You know someone made a good point a couple bubbles above that said (and Im paraphrasing here) "If cables were better broken in then why would broken in cables not be worth more money" You know after I thought about that it made perfect sense to me since ALL these cable manufactures specifically state that their cable will not sound its best until after x number of hours of burn in. Why not sell the cables already burned in?? Time, effort, cost, or setup could be reasons I suspect. When I called Morrow I told them "well whoever you sell this cable to next  it will already have a full 400+ hours on it" I kinda expected him to think that was a positive but I got zero reaction from that comment.. interesting. However that means nothing to him because thats just me saying I did the burn in with no proof that they can actually backup to the next customer so they are kinda stuck.  Being a small business selling anything to do with home audio has to be challenging. Returns have to be killers, but thats the business. I really did give it my all to keep the cable because I value these businesses. The more there are of them the better for us right. 

"Now, I believe some local retailers will allow you to try a component and or cables with a deposit."

IMO the thing to do is to have inventory of cables you can use just for demos. After the demo is over that cable has to be returned, and if you like it then you are sent a new cable. This way you don't need to have a 60 day return policy and customers can listen to the cable after its matured fully to determine if it will work out in their system. To me that solves the problem. 

Overall, I think this thread is very informative. I'm glad the process took place"

Well thats because of all the good people who participated in the conversation. I loved that everyone for the most part had good constructive input. These forums are very important I agree. 

Happy New year!

-Keith



prof
1,741 posts
 
Hi Keith!

You have mentioned your natural inclination towards skepticism.  I’m curious about the nature of yourr skepticism.  If it is merely a tendency towards cynicism or doubt, that is fully compatible with being fooled, because every human experienced powerful bias effects.  This is why you can find testimonials for every dubious, whacky belief you can think of, from cult members following a guru, to people believing in the cheesiest of faith healers, to the astrology, psychics, dowsing, crystal and energy healing, fake alternative medicines....the list is endless for which you can find the “converted skeptic” testimonial.   

Because most people don’t understand the power of human biases and cognitive error.
They think mere “doubt” is a firewall to being fooled.

There is another version of Skepticism that is more along the lines of holding off on conclusions while applying critical thinking, especially to controversial claims.

This isn’t mere “doubt” but rather taking a look at the big picture, seeing if the claims make sense, seeing what people with the relevant expertise have to say in the subject, looking at how the claims fit with other things science accepts, and ESPECIALLY being cognizant of the variable of human imagination and bias effects.  One could not be a Skeptic in the sense of being a critical thinker while dismissing or ignoring  the reality (so much of it scientifically documented) of bias in our perception.  

And when you actually start trying to control for your own biases you can come face to face with how powerful they are.
When you hear what seems to be an “obvious” difference disappear when you don’t know which cable or device you are hearing, it’s very edicational.

So I’m wondering what type of skepticism you would like to think you are bringing to your test.  If it is a sighted test where you know you are listening to your new cable and trying to hear burn in over (a ridiculous!) period of hundreds of hours, this is absolutely ripe for regular old perceptual errors and bias to intervene.
It doesn’t guarantee you will think you hear any difference, but the problem is that if you aren’t controlling for bias you will not have distinguished between “real physically audible changes” and ones you imagine.

Please keep in mind:  none of the above suggests you ought to blind test, or that you shouldn’t just proceed as you are and buy whatever you perceive you like.   No one should be dictating what anyone else buys or why.  I’d have most of my own gear taken away if my wife dictated what I should be spending my money on. :)

But if your goal is to truly determine if you have in your hands sound evidence for cable burn in, with a mind to skepticism questioning, THEN you should realize the inherent faults in your current evaluating method for doing so.

Cheers.


geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
14,147 posts
 
Geez, these demands for cable manufacturers to burn their cables in are a little bit late. Throbbing Gristle TG Audio burned in their speaker cables, interconnects and power cords for 30 days prior to shipping and shipped everything in anti static bags. Too bad more folks don’t follow the right sheep 🐑. What’s next, demands for fuse manufacturers to burn their fuses in prior to shipping? Are speaker manufacturers now supposed to burn in their speakers? And what about amplifier designers? And what of CD players?  Are these the same manufacturers who display brand new equipment at CES? Have they not heard of burn in? OMG! Saints preserve us! Maybe the best thing to do in these stressful angst filled times is take the bull by the horns and do whatever you think needs to be done, and not wait for the industry to catch up to audiophiles.
barnettk OP
295 posts
 
@prof you make a good point. I am away from home but I do want to address your comment when I get back to my laptop. Don’t even want to try on this cell phone. But good point. 
barnettk OP
295 posts
 
@prof 

you know when I first read your post on my cell I have to say I was a little taken back. Honestly I considered the possibility that you were actually trying to insult me on an intelligent level. However after being able to sit down and actually read it without distraction I get what your saying and its not insulting at all. As a matter of fact I consider it pretty reasonable.  I try not to reply to something like this out of emotion and actually try to understand what a person is saying and be as opened minded about it as I can.  All good points you make and I am thinking your speaking more in general than directionally. So the only part of your comment I will speak to is: 

"But if your goal is to truly determine if you have in your hands sound evidence for cable burn in, with a mind to skepticism questioning, THEN you should realize the inherent faults in your current evaluating method for doing so."

When I composed the first thread of the post my goal was to see if cable burn in had ANY effect on SQ of a IC. However I admit I was venting a bit on the fact that a company sells you a product with a set return period and then tells you that in order to fully achieve that products capabilities it will take one a year or so  (2 years in maybe in my case) to fully benefit from that product , which will then take you outside the return period. Now taking into account that before this I did not believe that cable burn in was a real thing in the first place. Not being cynical, or even doubtful at all. I simply did not believe that it would make any difference. That belief was born out of pure ignorance honestly speaking because prior to this experiemnt I will admit that I did not understand fully the function of the various components that make up an audio cable. I am man enough to admit that. So my thinking on the matter from the  start was a based on OPINION, not doubt or cynisism and I took the same side as others who don't believe burn in matters (kind of like follow the leader) without doing the proper research and experimentation on my own.  So IMO this is pure skepticism, and nothing dark, or deeper about it. Period.  Once I started working through this is when the education process started for me.

 So back  to your comment on my evaluation of the results of my test.  I am very in tune with how my system sounds regardless of what you or anyone else may thing I know when I hear something different in regards to how my system sounds. I did not need to do a blind test because it was just really not that close. The cable did sound better post burn in, simple as that. I tried to be as transparent, and honest as I could be with this. Do you really think that I would put myself out there like that and say this whole cable burn in is BS and ridiculous, go through all this to only come back and say I was wrong?? The burn in period did improve the cables performance. I admitted that. Im also admitting that after allowing the cable to sit unused for another period of time that the cable lost some of its SQ.  I don't think its a bad product. I think it's more that this particular cable is just not a good fit for my particular setup. I am deciding the return it simply for those reasons. Thats no knock on MA. I think I was very careful to not bash MA in any way (just in case thats what you meant by "the power in our bias"). Or. Maybe you mean that the power of or bias can and will influence our percived outcomes. To that I say "Im not buying it" in this case. So while I agree with some of what your saying I disagree that I could not properly come to my conclusions using the method of evaluating this experiement. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. Thanks for the constructive criticism. I really appreciate it.. honestly  not being sarcastic. 

-Keith

More to discover