Okay......best single box reference CD player

DcStep,

I agree that these subtle things are often not measured in practice. However, I do believe that if someone makes a claim that a particular design is the "best" in some regard, they should be able to back it up with quantifiable measurement to validate the claim.

Practically, verbal descriptions like you give work for me as long as they are a result of critical listening exercises. I can tell from your posts that you are indeed a critical listener, so your assessments carry weight for me.

Saying that one player has more detail or smoother response of some sort has meaning to me whereas "player x is/is not in the same league" without something to back it up other than opinion is meaningless.

To me, this high end audio stuff is much like fine wine. You can have two very fine wines that clearly taste different, or are of different styles. Same true of audio.

Also, no two people even have the same taste buds nor ears in terms of the ability for these biological sensors to discern taste or sound equivalently.

Its ironic that as we grow older and claim ability to be more discerning as a result of our experience, the fact is that our ability to hear physically deteriorates over time due to natural biological processes, so technically we are less competent than we were when we were young and still "wet behind the ears". This is a scientific fact, I am fairly certain. Very ironic!

I also believe it is true to a large extent that we also become more opinionated over time and this is a direct result of each person's unique experience.

About that getting older thing, it's true, but not entirely relevent, depending on the listener. You must consider the training and experience that the ears have received. Mario Andretti is over 60 and seldom drives competitively anymore, but he can still outdrive 99.9% of the male population of the western world. His nervous system is probably firing 30% slower than when he was 20, but his experience still leaves him in a different league than the rest of us humans.

Some of us have been playing musical instruments daily since we were ten or so and listening to "high end" stereos since we were in our late teens (decades ago) and we easily hear differences that others don't notice or can't isolate. So, like athletics, I think that listening is a skill that can be refined and honed with practice. Also, like certain skills, it helps to have started early in life and continued to develop over a period of decades.

Dave

Dcstep,

You are right. Trained ears can hear things less trained ears cannot even when older.

However, the time in which Mario correctly navigates a course can be measured and compared. And there are a lot of young pups out there who can maybe beat him now.

In the end, all that really matters is what sounds best to each person, or more realistically, what sounds best that that person can afford.

So I'd assert the question posed in this thread is a moot point, but still intertesting in that it does bring out useful information and some interesting opinions on the topic as well.

DC,

One other point I would agree with you wholeheartedly on is that there is no substitute for experience in listening closely to live music (particularly acoustic music) when it comes to making a determination about how good a system or component sounds.

Acoustic music played live is the real thing....the reference standard.

Yes, being a musician and/or hearing a lot of live acoustic music is a big plus. You get very good at hearing timbre and dynamics, particularly as a musician, since you're responsible for making it happen.

I have know several non-musicians that developed very good ears, so it's not exclusive to musicians, but they do tend to listen to live music also. In all my years as an audiophile I only met one person with really great ears that I trusted that claimed that she'd never been to a live concert. She'd been in audio as a dealer for over a decade when I met her. I think someone helped her build a very good first system (it included big electrostatics -- Beverage, anyone remember those) and by using that as a reference she then got to where she could pick between various lesser products. I consider her the exception, but I'm certain, based on her experience, that it can be done.

Dave