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New DAC Not a Dramatic Improvement?

Ok, So after much thought and asking questions here on audiogon as to whether I should get a new cdp or DAC, I decided on a DAC because I plan on implementing a music server with a Mac Mini. I got it last week and hooked it up so that I could do A/B comparisons with my cdp as is, and through the DAC. My cdp is a 1-2 year old Onkyo dv-sp405 dvd/cd player. At first I was impressed. The bass and vocals were more defined, and there seemed to be more space. Not a lot more space, but just a little bit more openess. The vocals were also moved forward in the soundstage and had more thickness. The thing is, none of these things were very dramatic. THe more time I have sat and listened and done comparisons on many cd's I find the results vary. On some cd's there is significant improvement, and on others, hardly noticeable. In a blind test, do I think I could reliably say whether I was listening to the cdp directly or through the DAC? Let's just say I wouldnt bet my life on it. I probably wouldnt even bet 20$ on it, unless I could hear the two back to back, and on some recordings, not even then.

Now I know about diminishing returns, but I would think the difference between a 150$ dvd/cdp and a 2K$ DAC would be pretty obvious. On top of that, My DAC is hooked up with Transparent Cables (MW Super) and my cdp with 50$ Monster Cables.

Continuing.. I expect some people with say that a good dac needs a good transport. Some will probably say that the dac is being held back by the onkyo as a transport. I have also compared the cdp through the DAC against apple lossless files played from my computer through USB. They are identical.

What could be the weak link? I do not want to say what DAC I am using but lets just say it is a very recent one and around 2K. It is from a very respected company and very well reviewed. My other gear is a McIntosh MA6450 integrated, gallo ref 3.1 speakers, transparent cables. Could it be that my amp is not very revealing? I am thinking about selling the DAC and getting a cheaper one (DAC MAGIC, PS AUDIO DL3) since I will need one for my Mac Mini anyway. Honestly, I just dont think I can justify having 2K in my current DAC for the minimal difference.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.
farjamed
audioengr
3,282 posts
 
If you want to hear a serious difference, go to ebay and purchase a VALAB DAC for $200. They come up for sale avery couple of weeks. Then drive it with a low-jitter source. Not your CD player. Simple, NOS DAC's are superb, but only if driven with low-jitter digital.

Jitter is #1 problem. D/A converter distortion and noise is #2 problem. Preamp noise and distortion is #3 problem. Lick all of these and you will have amazing sound quality. Not HiFi anymore, but music.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
chayro
1,801 posts
 
What CDs are you using as a benchmark? If you're using some super-compressed commercial recording, you may not have any additional resolution to gain. I bought a reissue of the Vanilla Fudge record on Sundazed and it sounded no better than a CD. The air, space, good stuff has to be in the source in the first place for the better player to show its mettle - IMO, of course.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
Audioengr makes excellent points. He knows what he's doing.

He should probably disclose that he manufactures and sells low jitter digital source and DAC products.
farjamed OP
33 posts
 
Tvad: You mention that I need better amplification. No offense taken. That had actually crossed my mind and is why I asked in my original post if my amp was not revealing enough. I do not want to stray away from integrateds though as I have space requirements, and frankly, I dont want more pieces to be wondering/worrying about. I do however like what I have read about the Bel Canto REF 1000s, and are probably the only seperates I would consider. Other than that I was thinking the Bryston B100sst, Plinius 9100, or Mark Levinson No 383. I guess this is the start of another thread, but what do you think?

Chayro: I have been using some Sigur Ros, M. Ward, Fleet Foxes, and Radiohead cds. The M. Ward albums seem to be recorded especially well. I am trying to stick to newer stuff.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
Farjamed, there are many excellent integrated amps available today. Those on your list are pretty good. There's good buzz about the LFD integrated amp. There are many others.

The Bel Canto Ref1000 are the only separates you'd consider, and this is based solely on what you've read? There are many options as good as, or better than the Bel Canto Ref1000 based just on what I've heard in my system (NuForce Ref9V2SE being one option). But, you still would need a preamp.

Frankly, I'd stay with your KISS approach and consider an integrated if that's the direction you want to go.
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