$800 Cartridge Shootout and Upgrade Path

Chris,

LOL. I got it! You know the reference to your tube amp being a “mediocre equalizer.” What a sense of humor you have. Why, I was thinking of starting another thread concerning the virtues of having a 10-band, tube-based equalizer in one’s audio system. Now that would be really cool!

Yeah, I know what you mean about the Redpoint web site not listing prices for their turntables. I figured that if I couldn’t afford the Galibier tables, I wouldn’t be able to afford the Redpoints either. But, you could always give them a call. Who knows, maybe they are cheaper. And if Redpoint is in Colorado with the other two manufacturers, then you could make it a “threesome” visit so to speak. Going to Colorado will clear up a lot of things for you, and it will be fun too.

Similarly, I went to Washington this last summer to visit Bob Carver in Snohomish. It was an eye-opening experience. I really didn’t know what to expect. He was very gracious and accommodating toward my wife and me. I learned a lot and came away being very impressed with the sound of his equipment and utterly fascinated by his success as a designer and as a businessman. He also told me that he is working on a new tubed amp (a "mediocre equalizer") that will deliver 600 watts into 8 ohms! I saw a large shipping box that looked like it had over 50 KT-88s!

By the way, I didn’t know that you lived in Seattle. What a great town. I grew up in Lynnwood, and I lived there between 1953 and 1971.

I, too, think that we are all in this together. If I could get all of my answers from reading TAS and Stereophile and could depend upon what my dealer told me, I wouldn’t have stared this thread. The truth is that most dealers I have met know less than me about audio. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but rather I am only stating how little most dealers know about audio equipment, and especially about analog. I could have gone to The Analog Room in San Jose, a fine place actually, but then I would not be able to purchase the Teres or an Origin Live Illustrious. However, they would have found something suitable for me, but it would not have been very cheap. The Analog Room has some really expensive gear.

I’m sorry to hear that Michael Green no longer makes racks. I guess that I will have to make one myself, although my wife thinks that I will most likely never get around to it. She may be right!

What tube amp are you using? I have Martin Logan Ascents; you know, "low-resolution" gear. I would like to go tube, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions. I was thinking about the Quicksilver V4 Monos, Music Reference RM200, McIntosh MC275, or Conrad-Johnson Premier 140. The problem with the last two choices is cost. I was also thinking about the Jolida JD 3300A. It’s new and replaces the JD 3000A. It costs about $5,000.

I hope things warm up in Seattle! But you may have to wait until March for that.

Artar1

Artar,

I didn't mean that Michael Green no longer makes racks, just that he no longers makes the particular model that I own. He makes heavier "clamp" racks, where you can screw the shelves down onto a component. I guess putting cones inbetween. He still makes all sorts of "tuning" acoustical products:
http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/catalog/mech.htm

As far as building a rack, well the platform was a project of desperation to play records and it mainly involved getting Home Depot to cut the boards I needed.

I gotta say that this Grand Prix amp stand is blowing me away. I have a Sonic Frontiers Power 2 SE amp and the sound quality after putting it on this rack is stunning. The backgrounds are jet black and guitar plucks sound more palpable(I'm listening to 'folk 'guitarist John Fahey's Red Cross right now). There's more space around everything and I can hear deeper into bass and drums. I know that a stand doesn't have a sound so I'll just say that this one lets the amp shine powerfully.

As for amp recommendations, well I'm not that familiar with the amps you're asking about. My brother is a big McIntosh fan and has heard them with the ML speakers and really liked the sound. He was thinking about getting a pair of the Ascents since he's heard them quite a bit at his local dealer in Detroit but decided that they would be too big for the size of his room. His living room is kinda small and though I told him to knock out a wall to make it bigger, I think he's gonna get stand mounted monitors and leave the wall where it is. Go figure. Perhaps you should get Carver to hook you up with 600 watts, that outta drive those Logans!!

As for the weather, I don't want it to warm up! I consider the winter great tube weather! I gotta enough tubes to warm up my apt good! I shut my radiator off completely because the winters here are mild(I grew up in Michigan and Minnesota) and the tubes give me what heat I need. (Well I do have a steam pole in the kitchen I can't turn off).

My dealer here (Tim at Experience Audio) has been patient and understanding with me and carries some nice equipment. He's the one who turned me onto the Grand Prix rack. When I said I wasn't an expert before, I meant it. I have listened to music, gone to concerts, toured with bands, worked in record stores and scoured the country from end to end for records but it wasn't until '96 that I discovered high-end audio. I have pursued more record collecting than audio equipment but in the last couple of years I have been trying to seriously upgrade my system. I've been to various dealers in cities I've lived in and been to a few Hi-Fi shows to hear equipment. Now I'm on the cusp of making some serious purchases and availing myself of the knowledge of others to help me out. It's tough to hear all the things you'd wanna hear! And I firmly believe that if I buy a "garbage" cartridge, because it's what I can afford, that when I upgrade to a better one, the experience with the lesser one will have been worthwhile. We accumulate knowledge through experience and I've found that each time I get something else, an amp, a cable, or whatever, that I hear a little better the next time. That's the learning curve!

Redpoint is in Arizona (the reason they split into Redpoint and Galibier was the distance between the two partners in Redpoint since one was in Colorado) but I have some personal business that will send me to Arizona in the spring so who knows.....I'll let you know...

Chris

I beleieve Redpoint's tables range from $5k-$15K depending upon options. The biggest differences to Galibier at the moment are free-standing (detached) arm pods and a slightly different Teflon platter. Prices probably increase with the amount of lead/oil dampening found in each component (plinth, platter, arm pod/s, and motor pod). Cosmetics are different as well and I beleive can be customized more than Galibier is offering presently. I've seen pics of Redpoints that were in a variety of colors (incl. Testarossa red:-)) rather than polished Aluminum. BTW, this is what I've picked up from reading and some brief conversations with Peter and Thom, I would still encourage you to call or email them to get more accurate info.

Matt

Hey Chris,

How’s Halloween? It’s quiet here.

I took a look at Michael Green’s web site, and his racks and stands are first rate. But then so are the prices. I will most likely make the stand for the turntable. I have to find a way to save money somehow. Maybe I can do it with the rack.

Just like you, I, too, will have Home Depot cut the wood for me. I think they charge a small fee, but it will be well worth it. In that way I won’t have to buy expensive cutting tools for a one-time use.

You have a Sonic Frontiers amp? That’s great. It’s really too bad Anthem stopped making tube gear. It seems like many people have components from Sonic Frontiers, and they seem to love them. Do your amps throw off that much heat so you don’t have to use the furnace? Wow! I wonder how a couple of tube monoblocks will fair in the summer heat of Tracy.

My learning experience has been a gradual one that has taken many years. I read a large number of reviews, listen to equipment whenever possible, and attend live symphony performances, which are now becoming quite expensive. Early on in my audio hobby career, I gravitated toward planar loud speakers, but could never afford them or house them properly in my listening room. My preference is for Magneplanar, either the MG 3.6R or the 20.1. At $12,000, it’s a bargain. However, my listening room is not big enough for either model so I purchased the Martin Logan Ascents instead. There is something special about a panel transducer; it recreates the original event so much more easily than most dynamically-driven loudspeakers that are priced under $10,000. The problem with such speakers is that a goodly part of the cost goes into the cabinet.

I didn’t know that Redpoint is in Arizona. And it doesn't help to know that their tables are apparently so expensive. So it looks like the Galibier will be a more viable choice for you, at least cost wise.

Artar1

In this thread, I have spent a considerable time talking about my upgrade aspirations, which for most people who love vinyl, cannot afford even if they won a small lottery. Now I know that seems difficult to believe given the systems of the people who have posted here, but it’s true. The fact is that most vinyl spinners are not prepared to spend between five and six thousand dollars on an analog front end. I still can’t believe that I am prepared to do so, but that’s the reality of audio today. Most requests for equipment suggestions on the Vinyl Asylum are for systems costing less than $2,000, and in some cases, much less.

So what do we tell such people? Do we tell them if they are not willing to spend at least four grand that they are simply deluding themselves? That doesn’t seem fair or realistic. I don’t know a single person who has spent that much. An audiophile acquaintance at work, for example, someone who makes about 140K per year and his wife nearly as much, is talking about buying a Rega P7 to play his vinyl collection, which must total about 1,000 LPs. He can certainly afford more, for he just dropped seven thousand for a pre-owned home theater processor. Maybe in his case, as it is with many, vinyl is now a sideshow, but I believe that even Circuit City is currently carrying the “black disc!”

So where am I going with this you might be asking as you stifle a yawn or two? Am I now equivocating over my recent decision, or am I simply wasting everyone’s time? The answer is “No” either case. While I was doing all of the research for my analog purchase, I also had an opportunity to unearth information about what would be considered a single step up from an absolute entry-level turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination. I am sure that anyone reading this thread, and whose eyes have glazed over after seeing some of the prices that have been bandied about, might rejoice to know that there are musically satisfying analog front ends that won’t empty the bank.

My first selection is the Musical Hall MMF-7. For a mere $989 (at LP Tunes) one can get a belt-driven turntable, the Pro-Ject Nine tonearm, and Goldring Eroica H moving coil phono cartridge. Normally this combination sells for about $1,200, and the Goldring carries an MSRP of about $400. The MMF-7 has received a number of very favorable reviews and seems to be well made. If you don’t like the cartridge, you can always sell it and buy a Clearaudio Aurum Bets S, Dynavector 20XL, Grado Reference Sonata (with its possible humming problem, although the cartridge does carry a tune I hear); Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (now on sale for $429), Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III, or Shure V15VxMR (which may be discontinued soon). If you know of a vinyl lover who has limited funds and is leery of buying used equipment, the MMF-7 combination is one I am sure that will bring years of delight.

For a few hundred more, one can buy the Rega P5, which sports the Rega RB700 tonearm. I believe this table is the replacement of the highly regarded P25, which has been discontinued. The RB700 has a higher effective mass than the Pro-Ject Nine, which means that lower compliance cartridges can be tried, such as the Audio Technica AT OC9. Like the MMF-7, the P5 is a virtual no brainer when it comes to setup, and should be easy to use and maintain. It does, however, only allow limited VTA adjustments, which can be circumvented by several aftermarket upgrades. In fact one of the attractions of owning a Rega is the number of upgrades available for it.

The last turntable on my economy list is the well regarded VPI Aries Scout. At $1,600, which includes the VPI JMW-9 tonearm, the Scout is a real winner that’s difficult to beat for price-performance. One has to spend upwards of $4,000 or more for a turntable and tonearm to obtain only a small improvement in sound from what I have read about the Scout. But keep in mind that the effective mass of the JMW-9 is only 7 grams and it has a somewhat limited provision for antiskating, which is achieved by twisting the tonearm cable, a novel idea to say the least. Because of the somewhat limited effective tonearm mass, one is advised against using something like the Denon DL103R, despite its famed reputation.

There are other turntable/tonearm combinations that one could try; the marketplace is certainly loaded with them. So what I have suggested here is not to be considered the absolute in sound for decent analog playback. Rather, I am offering a good starting point for anyone who is shell-shocked by the price of a Teres or Galibier turntable, or maybe even a Redpoint, just to name of few. Thus, the tables I have described in this post are real-world contenders in an industry enamored with opulence and high prices.

VPI JMW-9 (Effective Tonearm Mass: 7 Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 10 Hz; $500).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.6 Hz; $525).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 9.7 Hz; $500).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.1 Hz; $429 on sale).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.3 Hz; $349).

Shure V15VxMR (6.6gm; compliance = 30 cm; resonant frequency = 7.9 Hz; $325).


Pro-Ject Nine (Effective Tonearm Mass: 9.5 Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 9.3 Hz).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.8 Hz).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 8.9 Hz).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.4 Hz).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.5 Hz).

Audio Technica AT OC9 (8 gm; compliance = 9 cm; resonant frequency = 12.7 Hz; $280).

Rega RB700 (Effective Tonearm Mass: 11 (Approximate) Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 9 Hz).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.4 Hz).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 8.5 Hz).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10 Hz).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.1 Hz).

Audio Technica AT OC9 (8 gm; compliance = 9 cm; resonant frequency = 11.9 Hz).

And finally let me recommend the Rogue Audio Stealth phono stage with the Op-amp option for $835. This unit is a nearly plug-and-play device in its simplicity, and should work well with the cartridges listed above. It offers 100, 300, 1000, and 47K ohm loading, and four gain settings: 40, 50, 60, and 65 dB. All settings are made internally using dip switches. Its sound has been compared to the Graham Slee ERA Gold but with the ability to play low-output MCs.

Enjoy!