Subwoofer: should we even use them at all?

Hi Bo1972, as an owner of Velodyne DD18 (original), I think I know where you are coming from. How is the DD18+ by comparison?

Have you ever heard JL Audio, Krell Master Ref Sub or the new Magico QSub? Just curious since it would be fun to hear from someone who has. I certainly have read many good things about JL, but curious if you've heard them how you would compare them with my trust old DD18. Thank you!!

I have heard the DD18 several times. Not the DD18+

I never heard the DD18 reach the stealth speed I have at home. This is my Reference level of timing. So I compare everything with this quality. When it is less, it is fully useless in my world.

A know a few person which I sold cables who own JL subwoofers. You don't see them here a lot in the Netherlands.

I never liked any Krell speaker. It is better just focus on one thing....for them it is amps.

Magico subwoofer is of an extreme price. When there is a demo here in Holland, I will go for a listen.

Shameless tangent!

Marty: I'm interested in your experience with room correction. I also use Rythmiks (two 12" very heavy DIY boxes) in a stereo setup. I'm looking into Dirac for room correction (as my only source is a highly optimized computer), plus an active crossover to high-pass the tube amp and send the bass to the subs. Was wondering what your experience was with active crossovers?

Now, more relevant to the original post: I have small floorstanders (B&W 804S), and adding a sub was a good improvement. I started with a REL Storm III as reinforcement to the low end. Using measurement software/mic and a lot of time, I achieved good integration and I was much happier than without the sub. That REL has one 10" driver.
Then I replaced the REL with two 12" Rythmik subs. Much better! Initially they were also used as reinforcement in the lowest bass. I used Earl Geddes approach: both subs running a summed-up-bass signal, both set up with different crossover pounts, different phase, volume, etc (and different adjustments in the PEQ section) to get a smoother room response. And indeed it was a lot better!

Lately I tried an experiment: high-pass the tube amp (and hence the speakers) thru the crossover built into the plate amp of the Rythmiks, that crosses over at 80 Hz. Subs were kept in the same location (for now), but are now used as stereo and with different settings from before. This gave me a better sound. Better soundstage, imaging. I think the explanation is my speakers, while they can reproduce below 80 Hz, do so with higher distortion. Plus the tube amp must not be too happy to go down there either.
So in my experience subs are a very good thing for music. They do take significant effort and time to get right. And the reasons why they are a good thing aren't only about reaching down deep in the bass, but in some cases relieving the amp and speaker from playing where they are not most comfortable doing.

Cheers!

Above 80hz low freq. become touchable. That is why when you use your subwoofer a lot further ( 120-140hz) you become what I call stealth low freq.

That is the main reason why you need an extreme fast subwoofer in response to use easilly to higher freq.

Using till max 80Hz, is like using subwoofer during the 80's!! That was the past, it is about now.

Lewinski,

I've used several active x-overs and I divide them into 2 groups. The analog models included a tubed Marchand, an NHT x-2, and the internal active x-over in my Theta Casablanca. The Marchand was too noisy for me, but that might be unique to that piece, rather than the model, since I've been told that others had more success. The NHT is an excellent piece (and IMHO a great value), but I ended up pairing it with a Velodyne SMS-1. The resulting performance was excellent, but the set-up was a giant PITA (thanks to the Velodyne) and the multi box/cable arrangement was inelegant. The Theta is a really flexible and good sounding unit, too - and a one box solution.

I moved to an Onkyo 5509 pre-pro after I heard Audyssey xt-32. A lot of A/B testing at a couple of local places led to a loan of an Integra pre-pro which I felt was (much, to my taste) superior to the Theta. The crossover in the Onkyo (like most modern pre-pros) is effected in the digital domain. I ended up buying the Onkyo version because I couldn't hear a difference in sound between it and the Integra version, it was significantly cheaper, and I preferred its appearance.

To the x-over question: It's hard to separate the performance of the digital x-over (vs the analog x-overs) because they were integral (pardon the Onkyo Integra pun) parts of two very different pre-amps/pre-pros. In the end, I like the Audyssey powered one-box solution of a pre-pro for my main 2 channel system and that means a digital x-over comes as part of the deal. Whether it's the digital cross, the room correction, the balance of the preamp circuitry, or any combination of the above, the bottom line is that I found it to be a better mousetrap. Since I had already effectively stopped listening to LPs in favor of a server (and consequently didn't really have to deal with the cognitive dissonance presented by ADC and DAC for my analog LPs) I retired my ARC LS-25 and Joule LA-150 without much indecision. As always, YMMV.

Hope that helps. BTW, I've never heard the Dirac correction package, but I've done a bunch of research on it: There's definitely some interesting software there. If you do pull the trigger on Dirac, I'd be grateful if you posted your take on its performance.