Help in reducing distortion from old mono records.

To Johnss and Electroid,

I know that playing a record with a bad stylus can damage the grooves, but The Fire Bird suite on side 1 of the record in question plays fine. It's the choral piece on side 2 that distorts, as I stated in my thread.

I suppose it's possible only one side of this LP could have been damaged, but it seems unlikely. The Fire Bird suite was a more popular piece then the Choral one on side 2, and thus would have been more likely played than the other one. If the stylus was bad enough to cause that much damage to side 2, then that would indicate that The Fire Bird suite was probably never played at all.

I've noticed that massed Choral voices or high sopranos distort on a lot of these old records, and the problem isn't limited just to old monos but some of the first generation stereo ones as well, although to a lesser extent. Could there have been that many people out there with bad stylus' playing them?

Other than the possibility of groove damage, I've come to the conclusion that there are probably two causes for this problem.

1. The modern turntables and stylus' we use today simply cannot track these LP's properly. A turntable with a higher mass tone arm and a high quality mono cartridge may be needed, but what kind of turntable/cartridge and where do you get them?

2. That these records are just plain lousy. The technology used in the cutting of these old LPs simply wasn't good enough to record high frequencies properly, and nobody in their right mind and with ears to hear should be telling us that these things sound better than their more modern reissues, LP or CD.

What do you think? I think it's some of number one with some of number 2 thrown in also. After all, there are plenty of great sounding reissues out there taken from vintage LP's, so there must be a way to make them sound good.

I'm just trying to find out how!

I think it's simply inner groove damage, which in my experience is much more prevalent on choral, vocal and piano recordings; not just the old mono ones, but also lp's from the late 70's when light tracking force was all the rage. It is not suprising to me at all that an all orchestral piece has none, even if played more. My stereo guru says that people used to align their mono carts at the edge of the record, rather than with the usual null points.

I returned a $300 mono Furtwangler Tristan because of inner groove distortion, even though the records looked perfect. That was uncomfortable. I love mono Classical opera, so I zero in on the very last tube-cut editions, which have that great tube sound. It's your best chance at the least damaged monos, IMHO. Of course, you've got how many stereo releases from '58 to '89 to choose from? : )

Hello JDaniel13,

When you said inner groove damage did you mean inner groove distortion? That's normal to some degree on LP's as it gets closer to the end grooves but it should be barely noticeable if at all. The distortion on the Ansermet LP I'm talking about is so bad in spots on the choral piece that it sounds like it's audibly cracking up.

Also, I don't see what difference it would make whether an LP was tube-cut or not in a physical sense as far as groove damage was concerned, and weren't most LP's from the fifties tube-cut? I know that most home audio and TV's were still tube up to the early sixties.

Regarding "tube-cut," I'm only talking about sound-quality, the lp's have a "glow," supposedly imparted by the tubes, that later Lp's do not. (My point was that, the last released *may* be the least played.) This was just an aside, had nothing to do with the topic. (There were three tube-cut releases of Furtwangler's Mono EMI Tristan: the first, in six separate lp covers, then a 6 lp box set, and finally a 5 lp "Everyman Opera Series" box set) I obsess over this performance, and have had the best of luck with the last mentioned.)

And yes, I meant inner groove damage, which causes a type of inner groove distortion. Your description and curiosity reminded me of my own concerns when I first stumbled across the issue. I, too, was curious as to why a hugely complex orchestral passage--closer to the end of the record mind you--did *not* have damage, while a relatively quiet but sudden vocal passage toward the beginning of the record *did.* IMHO, vocal, piano, and choral, sometimes even loud solo flute, are the first to go bad.

It bothered me a lot the first time I came across such damage. I called my stereo guru and had him try different realignments, etc. The "cure" came when I stumbled upon the exact same record, which played perfectly, or--when I've found reviews from ages ago about a certain records which complain about the exact same passage; that they were cut too hot, or--I acquired the reel to reel or CD and discovered the distortion was in the master tape.

I would throw away the lp and move on. There is no one pressing that is alike, and one can never know how an lp was previously handled, which makes the exploration fun but also frustrating.

Thanks for the info JDaniel13,

I agree that some pressings of LP's, even identical ones, can be very different from others. Just like some bottles of the same wine can be different, and just like wine, it does make it frustrating when you come across a bad one but also very rewarding and fun when you get a great one!

I recently picked up a still sealed London stereo LP of Ansermet conducting Hayden, Mozart and Schumann (not too much luck with the London/Ansermet LP's lately huh?) and it too had a couple of spots of distortion and even mistracked in one area. It was bad out of the box!

Such is the minefield that one has to occasionally put up with when buying these types of LP's. I can understand why some would rather have the newer reissue LP's, or just buy the CD. They are much more consistent.

Fortunately, I only paid $1.00 for the mono Ansermet LP and only $10.00 for the stereo one. I wouldn't risk any big bucks on LP's like this unless I trusted the dealer and he had a good return policy. At least I can still listen to the great performance of The Fire Bird suite on side 1, and if I ever find another pressing of this that plays fine all the way around, I have a NM cover to slip it into!

The problem is that I had to learn this stuff myself the hard way. There is a lot of misleading info out there from fanatically biased LP lovers, who will always blame the equipment, the amount of money one spends on it, the cleaning method used, etc., as the reason for poor sound. When in reality, the LP just sounds plain bad.