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lps sound bad

I am finally listening to lps after going perhaps 20 years without, due to a recent (about 3 months) investment into a vinyl rig. I'm absolutely bummed that perhaps 30 to 40% of my collection really isn't worth playing due to sonic considerations.

I have an aproximate 2,000 lp collection, nearly all are new album, record show, or garage sale purchases dating from the early 70's thru the mid 80's. These are mostly all very well preserved, with minimal wear, dust pops, scratches etc. My problem is not with the shape or cleanliness of the records (they have been hand cleaned in accordance with 'expert' advice, then cleaned again in a VPI 16.5). Nor are they mistracked, none of that inner groove distortion.

It is also not a setup issue, cartridge setup is absolutely correct, and every other parameter of setup, from the wall shelves/isolation to power cords and ICs has had careful attention.

My issue is in the mastering and/or pressing of the lps. This 30 to 40% have issues, mostly with small soundstaging and/or lack of frequency extension, especially in the bass. They simply sound small scale and lightweight, like mid-fi to me. The other 60 to 70% of my collection sound relatively huge in comparison, large, airy soundstaging, transparent, dynamic, especially the micro dynamics.

Now, the vast majority of the 30 to 40% that sound small scale are what I believe to be, original pressings of 70's rock music. The rest, mostly 50's and 60's recordings from a huge variety of genres, sound wonderful, mostly way better than my digital.

I suspect what I'm hearing is excessive compression due to poor mastering and/or pressing. At this point I'm not sure whether the main culprit is mastering or pressings. As I previously mentioned, most of these recordings were purchased in the early 70's to mid 80's, thus, I believe they are original pressings, which leaves mastering as the culprit. On the other hand, I have digital remasters of a number of these rock recording, a small number sound larger scale than their lp counterparts, which leads me to suspect pressings in some cases.

From this, I extrapolate that mastering is the culprit in most cases. Furthermore, I believe the bad sounding lps sound bad because of solid state recording studio equipment. My 50's and 60's recordings nearly all sound big, large scale, some may not have the greatest frequency extension, especially in the highs, but they all are tonally and dimensionally full, some luciously so, in the midrange. These recordings come from the heyday of tube equipment, both in the recording studio and home audio.

I should add, I'm not trying to make a case of solid state recording studios being the sole culprit here, as a small percentage of my 70's rock recordings sound large scale and satisfying. Rather I think it is solid state done on the cheap, and with bad ears on the part of the producers and engineers that is at fault. The late 60's and early 70's had more than it's fair share of crappy solid state, and most producers and engineers didn't know the first thing about quality sound (as remains the case).

Still, it seems the 50's and 60's producers and engineers could do less harm to the sound, the tube recording equipment always had the relatively voluptuous midrange. And perhaps the tube home audio of the day let them hear at least a semblance of quality, so they tried to replicate that sound in the studio.

As things stand, I'm somewhat disappointed in vinyl at this point. I was hoping these 70's rock recordings would sound much better than their cd counterparts (remastered or not). 30 to 40% of my collection is basically throw away at this point, I don't care to go through all the hassles inherent in the playing of records that sound only as good or worse than their digital counterparts.

I'm now getting the itch to buy lps new, I'm just wondering if the newly minted rock lps of classic rock are worth buying. It seems the digital remasters I have are only marginally better, in most cases, over older digital pressings. I suspect the same will hold true for vinyl, the new remasters will only sound marginally better than my original pressings.

At this point, I'm basically writing off classic rock recordings on lp. While I know classic rock can sound good on lp, the small number of exceptions I've experienced leave me highly skeptical. Future purchases will be mostly limited to recordings (of all genres) prior to the 70's. Future classic rock purchases will be mostly in digital form, for any lp purchases I will have to rely on thumbs up by reviewers I trust. Contemporary recordings are problematic as well, sound quality is all over the place in the digital recording studios, it seems to be a crapshoot, have to rely on reviewers here as well.

Vinyl setup:
VPI Scoutmaster
JMW 10.5i tonearm
SDS
Dynavector 20XL
Cayin Phono-One
sns
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
Well, I was there in the late 1950s, all of the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and I'm here to say the 1970s and '80s Lps were generally terrible for most pop and rock and much jazz. I jumped at D2D, half-speed masters, etc., etc. in some hopes of beating the status quo. Lot's of classical even sucked, with bad pressing made from too-tired mothers.

What I do with that part of my collection is not listen to it. I'm amazed at all the people talking about the treasures they're finding on Craigslist,garage sells, etc. I had a chance to buy that stuff new and it was mostly crap back then.

So, most remasters are better, whether they're CD, SACD or vinyl. If things sounded better in the 1970s, it was because our systems weren't as good.

I think it's got nothing to do with SS vs. tube and it's all about poor budget choices and the "give them crap, they won't care" attitude of many of the big labels back then.

Dave
sns OP
653 posts
 
Oregon, yeah, I have some older Animals albums I have yet to hear, wasn't expecting much. On the other hand, I have War's, The World is a Ghetto, very nice sounding. My Cream albums all sound mediocre at best.

As for my phono preamp, I've previously auditoned or owned an ARC SP9MkII, didn't like, Project Tube Box, not bad, just a bit too much warmth and lacking some detail, Bellari Vp 129, not bad for the cost, Jolida JD-9, didn't like at all. I have yet to see a review on the Cayin so I don't know how others rate it. It does have great build quality at the price point ($1800), the thing weighs a ton, has very good parts quality, including very good coupling transformers, it uses 12ax7s. I don't know how it would compare to something like the K&K or Art Audio phono stages I was considering purchasing. I ended up getting a great deal on the Cayin, likely because no one's heard of it. Still, considering how good it sounds with quality vinyl, I have no problem. It seems very transparent, detailed, nice soundstaging, precise imaging, engaging tonal balance with extension on both ends, just sounds real nice to me. I am going to replace the Sovteks with Mullards to warm up the mids a bit. I'm not in any hurry to replace, although I may get with Joe Fratus at Art Audio for an audition on one of his phono stages.
stiltskin
499 posts
 
Sns,
Misspelled the title of one of my all time favorite rock Lps...Long day...

I was back going through Better Records .com and here is something you may want to check out.

Click on Hot Stampers. click on Customer Testimonials then Customer warning\, read through it.

Also on the same page go to Bad Heavy Vinyl.

And thanks to Bongofury and GMC for the info on Better Records.
Its new to me....
jaybo
4,478 posts
 
pink floyd has always had complete artistic control since atom heart mother...that includes where and how their releases are manufactured. the us harvest pressing should be a dandy. i have 10 copies(yes i'm crazy), and all the opened ones are great..japan, us, german and uk. the mobile fidelity is my favorite though.
artemus_5's avatar
artemus_5
412 posts
 
Sns, you say "I mentioned in previous posts the offending lps. Just off the top of my head, I can add Eagles-Hotel California,..."

I have never heard anyone say that album sounded bad. I know you don't want to hear it but this is so fishy it makes me believe that there is definitely something wrong in your system.
The Benz Cart I spoke of earlier which was defective was new. it took a test record to uncover that there were problems with it. But the only thing the test record showed was that it did not pan. It tracked fine and when it played good it was marvelous. But on some records that I knew were good, it played terrible while on some that had previously been bright and tizzy, it subdued and played nicely. FWIW it drove me nuts and took 2 months to finally come to the conclusion that the cart was defective. The only way I found it was to try it in another system which was quite tricky since there aren't too many audiophiles in this neck of the woods. And BTW I'd say that 30-40% of my records were unlistenable with this defective cartridge.
Bottom line is that 40 % of unplayable records is unacceptable and goes against everything I know about vinyl playback. If you had a cheap TT et al, then maybe so. But not with your setup. There's something wrong in the vinyl chain. I'm trying to be helpful and not put down your system nor your knowledge. I will say it no more.
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