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lps sound bad

I am finally listening to lps after going perhaps 20 years without, due to a recent (about 3 months) investment into a vinyl rig. I'm absolutely bummed that perhaps 30 to 40% of my collection really isn't worth playing due to sonic considerations.

I have an aproximate 2,000 lp collection, nearly all are new album, record show, or garage sale purchases dating from the early 70's thru the mid 80's. These are mostly all very well preserved, with minimal wear, dust pops, scratches etc. My problem is not with the shape or cleanliness of the records (they have been hand cleaned in accordance with 'expert' advice, then cleaned again in a VPI 16.5). Nor are they mistracked, none of that inner groove distortion.

It is also not a setup issue, cartridge setup is absolutely correct, and every other parameter of setup, from the wall shelves/isolation to power cords and ICs has had careful attention.

My issue is in the mastering and/or pressing of the lps. This 30 to 40% have issues, mostly with small soundstaging and/or lack of frequency extension, especially in the bass. They simply sound small scale and lightweight, like mid-fi to me. The other 60 to 70% of my collection sound relatively huge in comparison, large, airy soundstaging, transparent, dynamic, especially the micro dynamics.

Now, the vast majority of the 30 to 40% that sound small scale are what I believe to be, original pressings of 70's rock music. The rest, mostly 50's and 60's recordings from a huge variety of genres, sound wonderful, mostly way better than my digital.

I suspect what I'm hearing is excessive compression due to poor mastering and/or pressing. At this point I'm not sure whether the main culprit is mastering or pressings. As I previously mentioned, most of these recordings were purchased in the early 70's to mid 80's, thus, I believe they are original pressings, which leaves mastering as the culprit. On the other hand, I have digital remasters of a number of these rock recording, a small number sound larger scale than their lp counterparts, which leads me to suspect pressings in some cases.

From this, I extrapolate that mastering is the culprit in most cases. Furthermore, I believe the bad sounding lps sound bad because of solid state recording studio equipment. My 50's and 60's recordings nearly all sound big, large scale, some may not have the greatest frequency extension, especially in the highs, but they all are tonally and dimensionally full, some luciously so, in the midrange. These recordings come from the heyday of tube equipment, both in the recording studio and home audio.

I should add, I'm not trying to make a case of solid state recording studios being the sole culprit here, as a small percentage of my 70's rock recordings sound large scale and satisfying. Rather I think it is solid state done on the cheap, and with bad ears on the part of the producers and engineers that is at fault. The late 60's and early 70's had more than it's fair share of crappy solid state, and most producers and engineers didn't know the first thing about quality sound (as remains the case).

Still, it seems the 50's and 60's producers and engineers could do less harm to the sound, the tube recording equipment always had the relatively voluptuous midrange. And perhaps the tube home audio of the day let them hear at least a semblance of quality, so they tried to replicate that sound in the studio.

As things stand, I'm somewhat disappointed in vinyl at this point. I was hoping these 70's rock recordings would sound much better than their cd counterparts (remastered or not). 30 to 40% of my collection is basically throw away at this point, I don't care to go through all the hassles inherent in the playing of records that sound only as good or worse than their digital counterparts.

I'm now getting the itch to buy lps new, I'm just wondering if the newly minted rock lps of classic rock are worth buying. It seems the digital remasters I have are only marginally better, in most cases, over older digital pressings. I suspect the same will hold true for vinyl, the new remasters will only sound marginally better than my original pressings.

At this point, I'm basically writing off classic rock recordings on lp. While I know classic rock can sound good on lp, the small number of exceptions I've experienced leave me highly skeptical. Future purchases will be mostly limited to recordings (of all genres) prior to the 70's. Future classic rock purchases will be mostly in digital form, for any lp purchases I will have to rely on thumbs up by reviewers I trust. Contemporary recordings are problematic as well, sound quality is all over the place in the digital recording studios, it seems to be a crapshoot, have to rely on reviewers here as well.

Vinyl setup:
VPI Scoutmaster
JMW 10.5i tonearm
SDS
Dynavector 20XL
Cayin Phono-One
sns
artemus_5's avatar
artemus_5
412 posts
 
Sns, you say "I mentioned in previous posts the offending lps. Just off the top of my head, I can add Eagles-Hotel California,..."

I have never heard anyone say that album sounded bad. I know you don't want to hear it but this is so fishy it makes me believe that there is definitely something wrong in your system.
The Benz Cart I spoke of earlier which was defective was new. it took a test record to uncover that there were problems with it. But the only thing the test record showed was that it did not pan. It tracked fine and when it played good it was marvelous. But on some records that I knew were good, it played terrible while on some that had previously been bright and tizzy, it subdued and played nicely. FWIW it drove me nuts and took 2 months to finally come to the conclusion that the cart was defective. The only way I found it was to try it in another system which was quite tricky since there aren't too many audiophiles in this neck of the woods. And BTW I'd say that 30-40% of my records were unlistenable with this defective cartridge.
Bottom line is that 40 % of unplayable records is unacceptable and goes against everything I know about vinyl playback. If you had a cheap TT et al, then maybe so. But not with your setup. There's something wrong in the vinyl chain. I'm trying to be helpful and not put down your system nor your knowledge. I will say it no more.
sns OP
653 posts
 
Stiltskin, Meddle is incredible, it would be awesome to hear it on quality lp. Jaybo, I recall my Meddle (US Harvest) sounding rather lousy, however, that was in a prior vinyl setup, will have to try it again this weekend.

Thanks to all for the heads up on Better records, this guy seems to be right up my alley on evaluating record quality. The site is a fount for the analog enthusiast looking for good quality vinyl. It is sort of breathtaking to see the prices on the Hot Stampers, however.

I will definitely be purchasing some vinyl from there in the future. Looking at prices, I feel lucky to have so many good sounding lps. I paid $1 to perhaps $7 for the vast majority of my lps, I couldn't afford my collection at today's prices.
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
I'll pile on and say that my original "Hotel California" sucked, due to a crappy pressing, all too typical of that time. Yeah, the music was great, but there's no resurrecting that crappy pressing no matter how good your cartridge.

Don't forget, LP was the main mode of distribution, so the pressers milked the mothers (pun intended, I guess) for all they were worth and then some. As a buyer it was a bit of luck of the draw. Easily, 20% of the pressings from that era were bad and some labels were far worse than that, IME.

Dave
sonofjim
557 posts
 
I guess my expectations were not as high as some of yours. I got into vinyl expecting much of it to not sound good but the good stuff to be worth the trouble. I was pleasantly surprised to find how much I enjoyed all of it. Some are admittedly lifeless but I find most to be very ejoyable with the occasional "demo disc" wow factor. I think this wow factor can become very addictive. Richard Vandersteen once told be it would be a shame to only play "demo music". You don't always drive a sports car flat out on the autobohn. If we only want to play the "gems" we miss out on a lot of good music. He's a smart man.
johnnyb53
3,490 posts
 
Don't forget, LP was the main mode of distribution, so the pressers milked the mothers (pun intended, I guess) for all they were worth and then some. As a buyer it was a bit of luck of the draw. Easily, 20% of the pressings from that era were bad and some labels were far worse than that, IME.
That's why, when I'm perusing the bargain bins, I snatch up anything stamped with "Promotional Copy: Not for Sale," because these were usually the first pressings off a stamper sent to reviewers and radio stations.

Also, some records from this era have a good side and a bad side. IME the Rod Steward LPs from his Mercury days sound pretty good, sometimes excellent. But he went to Warner at the height of their power and popularity. His first album for them, Atlantic Crossing, sounds good on the acoustic-dominated side 2, "The Slow Side," while "The Fast Side" with more electric rock, sounds compressed and hashy. I was working at an audio store in 1975 when it came out and I remember how the store mgr. commented about how crummy the mastering was.

In fact, at that store I remembered we had to play D2D Sheffield discs to show a system's capabilities--even if the music was corny.

There may be another dynamic at work here, however. LPs ruled the '70s, and classic rock ruled our lifestyles. You couldn't go to a party without a record changer playing a stack of Eagles, Jackson Brown, Yes, Elton John, Jefferson Starship, Elvin Bishop, Linda Ronstadt, etc. This stuff got the hell played out of it on record changers with dirty conical or barely elliptical stylii and heavy tracking weights. It's hard to find copies of some of the most popular music from this era in good condition.
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