Schroder sq and the new talea

Dear Atmasphere,

I still believe that true value in the sense of the word has nothing to do with declaration or point of view of people but with its inherent quality.

This seems inherently contradictory. There is no 'objective' viewpoint to be had; we are all humans and assign value and create stories about 'quality' in an arbitrary fashion. Rome did not prevail because of a sword; it prevailed, and that's all there is. Once you assign reasons, you are making up stories.

"Rome prevailed, and that's all there is. Once you assign reasons, you are making up stories." ?
Oh yeah ?
Sounds to me like the G.W. Bush way to simplify existence and the world as much as possible, so that ultimately nothing is left that can't be either bought, explained to a 3 year old child or bombed ....
I took the example of an outstanding ( if historical ) technical device with superior performance - rooted in superior knowledge of its creator, unique materials used and recognized both in its time and by history.

This sentence should be something every audio designer would like to see written about himself and his creations - right ?

Now the point should be clear.
It was to illustrate just that specific point - not to discuss Roman empire's history nor the reason for it's military and strategic success.
Finally and just BTW: Rome did not prevail of a sword alone, but in military history the roman gladius I was talking about is long recognized as one of the very few truly outstanding ( read: graced with inherent value ...) weapons in history.
In a line with the english longbow, or the japanese Katana.
It "helped" to shape the world we are living in today.
There is such thing as inherent quality - the fact that it is so rarely found today is sad, but no proof for it's absence in reality.
I for one do look for inherent value in audio components.
That these birds are so rare is not my fault.

Atmasphere, If you are right then physical science is not
possible. Frege stated that science needs the sence as well
as reference by its statemens. Every single particle physicist knows the 'meaning' of Higs particle. Ie the contribution of this particle to the theory. But non of them knows if this 'name' has a reference. So we in Europe have build this colider for 2 billion Dollars in order to
(possible) answer the question about reference. If we do not succeed then the whole theory will colapse.I need not to defend Dertonarm, he is much smarter then I, but his
opinion is in accordance with physical science. One can
dispute his wording (inherent value of objects) but not
his physical inclination. The nature does not care about our feelings nor about our thinking. The arrogance of homo
sapince is self-deceit. Our 'mother náture' don't care about us.
Regards,

Thank you for your reply Ralph! Now everything makes a lot more sense to me. LOMI carts indeed can't be compared to LOMCs based solely on their output figures. But with correct loading one can achieve an incredibly wide bandwidth(flat beyond 70kHz +). Not that there is any usable info imbedded in the grooves(nor was it ever present on the master), at least one sees no nasty (MC)peak between 15 and 30kHz and the phase shift near the upper end of the audio band is minimal.

Have a great weekend,

Frank

One can
dispute his wording (inherent value of objects) but not
his physical inclination. The nature does not care about our feelings nor about our thinking. The arrogance of homo
sapince is self-deceit. Our 'mother náture' don't care about us.

Yes. I think we are on the same page here- life does not care what we think of it ('Rome was successful due to a fabulous sword'), it simply is. When we make up stories about life and life does not agree, well, that is the source of all human suffering.

So I maintain that Rome prevailed. I would think that it is because they *recognized* the value of that sword, but not due to the sword itself, as, IMO, Rome was successful out of its policy. But that is the reason I made up. Life says simply: 'Rome prevailed.'

Actually, I was just holding Dertonearm's feet to the fire- I like to *think* that I have good taste for quality as well, but somewhere in the last decade or two I became aware that as a human I am remarkable fallible; that the perceptions of my senses can be misleading as can my beliefs. That does not stop me about my tasks, now days I am committed to but not so attached to the outcome thereof. So when Dertonearm is talking 'quality', **even though I seek the very same** (assuming that the value of 'good' is attached to that quality- I hate to buy junk) I find that the conversation can take on an absurd quality very quickly. Like me going on like this :)

Welcome home Frank, and thanks, for the detailed follow-up.

At the end of the day, the key takeaway, while not what everyone hoped for, was a very good one, nevertheless. New and old friendships were made / rekindled.

I agree with you, 100% about the volume control coarseness, which was exacerbated by two factors: (1) too much gain in the amplifiers for the speaker/room situation. This resulted in “living too low" on the dial” where the steps are larger, and (2) the change in cartridge / phono stage which resulted in a larger than expected gain mismatch at the point of entry into the line stage.

I agree with you. At 6pm on Saturday, our choice was to either kill the session, or to proceed with a "flawed" one (flawed according to expectations of a more direct comparison). We went full speed ahead, which I think was the right choice.

Ultimately, setting a deadline (rather than a goal) of 24 hours ahead of time for completing a test setup would have helped mitigate this. We could have (with Ralph's help, for example) reduced the gain in the Atma-sphere M-60 amps, to result in a more clockwise rotation of the volume dial, where the steps are less coarse. This would have helped level matching to a degree. Then, there’s the issue of loading that Ralph brought up ... easy to do a day ahead of time, but not so easy when it’s “show time”.

So, with the reality of a show, and all of the interruptions and potential catastrophic events, what's a fellow to do? I know that you were really slammed for time, and unable to run through your simulation as early both of us would have liked. Similarly, I was working on an equipment change that didn’t land in suite 1130 until 3am on Friday morning. Such is the reality of shows, and matching gear in unfamiliar places.

Perhaps the answer lies in some sort of hybrid approach for any future sessions - something you alluded to: to increase the population of "candidates".

This would allow us to put a hard deadline for any "entries", of 24 hours before "show time". If something hasn't been fleshed out by then, it doesn't get into the session. It sounds a bit harsh, but would serve as a means of "thinning the herd".

With that understanding, there will be no perception of a hidden agenda, and we can all get on with the business of playing with all of these toys. Heck! I don’t have a pony in this race ... other than my turntables (grin).

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier