A Copernican View of the Turntable System


Once again this site rejects my long posting so I need to post it via this link to my 'Systems' page
HERE
128x128halcro

T-Bone, Nikola,

Pods, Plinths, Pedestals.......? No, I don't think so.

I recommend using a Podium, as the winner always ends up there....

John

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Dear Jonathan,
We all, I believe, value your contributions to these forums.......I know I certainly do.
And I recognise that you must have vast experience in listening to audio systems of all types.
You should appreciate that most of to us here, also have many years of experience in listening to various systems belonging to other audiophiles as well as those in dealer's listening rooms and also hi-Fi shows so that our 'hearing' is conditioned by all those experiences and also more importantly, live music performances.
It is thus a little puzzling to think that you actually believe we are perhaps listening to distortions without somehow knowing it?
I have listened during a period of 2 years to a Rockport Sirius III turntable with your own quite good Olympos cartridge :^) and over the last 4 years, have regularly listened to a Continuum Caliburn with Cobra and again.....your modest Olympos.
I have heard hundreds of systems in rooms far far better than mine and have continually monitored my sound against all of these.
My room is not ideally designed with regard to equipment placement as you quite rightly point out but some of us have no other choices without a dedicated listening room.
One thing my room does have......is a wonderful acoustic volume with a ceiling raking up to a height of 18 feet. If you've ever heard what room 'volume' can do for your sound, you'd select that over most other parameters I believe.
My point is that the sound emanating from my system is compared to that of the finest sources, amplification and speakers commercially available and I believe that I can detect 'distortions' as well as you or anyone else.
The greatest changes I've heard to my sound over the last 2 years is in fact in the reduction of distortions from the turntable.
Some of this results from the isolated armpods (I do still play the Raven AC-3 for comparison) but the major reduction in analogue distortions to my ears, has been the switch to MM cartridges over LOMCs.
I can hear high frequency distortion in most of the LOMCs regardless of the arm, turntable or set-up.
Now you obviously do not hear these distortions so I'm not sure that a meaningful discussion between us on that topic is achievable :^(
Having said all that......there are those who prefer DD to Belt Drive and others who prefer Idlers. As I've said before.......I find far greater differences in cartridges than in drive type and I admire those who claim to hear those differences.
I can't stand the distortions I hear in digital reproduction yet most here, can happily live with them?
We all are different and all our experiences are valid.
I've also learnt that 'blanket' statements regarding audio are commonly wrong?
This is a 'discussion' Forum and the more we have.....the more we can possibly learn.
Dear John, You are obviously an atheist. Never seen a church from the inside? There is always a Podium in any that I know of and all of them claim to be the winner. However if the other members of my church prefer 'Podiúm' above 'Pedestal' who am I to disagree? As long as I don't need to kneel before some plinth...that is.

Regards,
Dear Halcro:

Regarding what I think is the overall point of your post, I agree that everyone has and should have the freedom to listen to the sound that they like.

Regarding the Olympos, I should point out that the Titan-i is the more neutral, better-performing cartridge, but it is more demanding of setup, and it is more demanding of partnering equipment.

>If you've ever heard what room 'volume' can do for your sound, you'd select that over most other parameters I believe.

I have friends and business associates that I visit frequently, with big listening rooms that are acoustically shielded, structurally solid, and receive electricity from dedicated, 3-phase power lines. I agree that room volume is good, but past a certain point, I prefer proper mechanical, acoustic and electrical setup, and I prefer close listening proximity to the speakers (and a speaker that allows this). The air between your ears and the speakers is a great sound absorbent (filter), and you can tell a lot more about the faults of your system and components if you can listen from within, say, 1.5 meters from the speakers (although I try to stay closer).

>The greatest changes I've heard to my sound over the last 2 years is in fact in the reduction of distortions from the turntable.

If you use a DD motor and you don't have much moment-inertia in the plinth, you will be creating a form of noise which is somewhat similar to the background noise of an LP (but is a separate, distinct phenomena). FWIW, Sansui designed a couple of contra-rotating turntables specifically to combat this distortion without requiring so much moment-inertia in the plinth.

If you have a tonearm mount that allows relative movement between the LP and tonearm pivot, you are also creating distortions.

And if the turntable shares the same acoustic space as the speakers, without structural and air-borne isolation, you will again be creating measurable, audible distortions (although the magnitude of the problem depends on how much acoustic or structure-born energy the turntable receives).

You can quantify the difference by making a high-bit recording of your turntable without the speakers playing, and with speakers playing at your customary listening levels, and compare the two files. If you put the two files through a program such as DiffMaker by LIberty Instruments, it is possible to extract the difference component and listen to it as a distinct "distortion" track.

There are reasons why I said that some of the posts suggested that the poster wasn't hearing distortions that were almost certainly present, and should be quite measurable and audible.

>major reduction in analogue distortions to my ears, has been the switch to MM cartridges over LOMCs.

My experience is that MM vs. LOMC is largely a phono stage and tonearm issue. LOMCs need a good phono stage, they need as few electrical contacts between themselves and the phono stage as possible, and the low-compliance types need a suitable tonearm that can sink a lot of mechanical energy without becoming perturbed.

I have heard (or own) some MMs that I rate fairly highly, but they still leave me somewhat wanting. OTOH, I do believe that MMs or MIs have more performance potential than most previous efforts have been able to demonstrate, and in the future, I hope to be able to design an MM or MI cartridge that shows this to be true.

>Now you obviously do not hear these distortions so I'm not sure that a meaningful discussion between us on that topic is achievable :^(

It would be more accurate to say that I hear other distortions from MMs or MIs that annoy me even more (^o^).

>I find far greater differences in cartridges than in drive type and I admire those who claim to hear those differences.

Interesting, because I've designed and built various turntable power supplies, control systems and drive amps, and I assure you that the difference between topologies and components (semiconductors, capacitors, rectifiers etc.) is quite audible. And that is without changing the particular motor or drive system under test, let alone the drive type.

>I can't stand the distortions I hear in digital reproduction yet most here, can happily live with them?

I hear a different set of distortions from digital than I do analog, but both have audible distortions. Open-reel tape has audible distortions, and recording microphones do, too (smile). FWIW, my experience is that the transport, DAC and line preamp all have a significant effect on the reproduced sound quality from digital audio.

My present digital system is capable of playing back 384kHz 32-bit studio master-grade recordings, and the transport is a dedicated solid-state device that runs in synchronous clock mode with the DAC (effectively eliminating or at least drastically reducing jitter). At this level, digital doesn't sound so bad (^o^).

>We all are different and all our experiences are valid.

When it comes to subjective preferences, everyone is free to choose whatever they like (and for whatever reason). But let us also keep in mind that not everyone who dissents is an armchair critic, Sunday designer, or lacking in the experiences that make others go ga-ga.

>This is a 'discussion' Forum and the more we have.....the more we can possibly learn.

If the discussion presents dissent as well as assent, yes. Assent only, not so useful.

kind regards, jonathan
Dear Halcro, The Germans are not considered as having any sense for humour. By the Dutch in any case.But they produced this saying:'if theory and practice coincide then
they are probable both false'. They were also the first to
mentinon this 'unity between theory and practice' ( Marx if
I am correct). Now I consider Jonathan as a genius designer
(think also about his pres), a nice guy and as honest as
'Gold' as one says ( aka indisputable integrity). But his
aims and intentions are impossible to fulfil without his own preferences or testes. His work imply both: the technical knowledge and application of this knowledge to
reach some ends. For him this 'unity' of theory and practice must be self-evident.
But we want a separation of 'objective' and 'subjective'
aspects of the valuation process and can always attribute
some of his propositions to his 'subjective valuation'.
The same apply to Raul btw. Now this 'subjective valuation'
is connected with our upbringing,culture, education, family infuences , experience etc, etc. Ie our whole brain is involved. To refer to all this as 'subjective' is
of course very slim. But somehow in our discussions we are
predisposed to talk about 'subjective' as something that is
suspicious. Why are we so skeptical about those with whom
we disagree?

Regards,