Uni-Protractor Set tonearm alignment


Looks like Dertonarm has put his money where his mouth is and designed the ultimate universal alignment tractor.

Early days, It would be great to hear from someone who has used it and compared to Mint, Feikert etc.

Given its high price, it will need to justify its superiority against all others. It does look in another league compared to those other alignemt devices

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtnrm&1303145487&/Uni-Protractor-Set-tonearm-ali
downunder
John G,
A few comments...

#1) I have nothing to say on his or your comments on antiskate and SME. I have seen no vagueness of analysis on 12" vs 9". Given what you say later in your post, it is pretty obvious you have a simple explanation (but you did not give your analysis either). I think if it is obvious to you, it may also be obvious to others. It is to me. If you have additional complex analysis of the differences, please share. I think 'analysis' of 'why' old full-length records should have different innermost and outermost grooves is kind of a moot point. They are different (at least mine are). If one has looked at enough records, one may notice patterns among periods, recording companies, cutters, etc. I think that noting the difference and applying math to it to achieve better set up where desirable is easy, and I think that is what he has done. Standard geometry using standard assumptions does not always produce lowest possible distortion except in the case when the record has the same dimensions as the standard assumptions AND one does not prioritize low distortion in one part of the record over another.

#2) I don't find him unclear on geometry issues at all. As far as I can tell, he has stipulated everything you have written. He shouldn't have to as the math does not change. He mentioned in these fora, that given his parameters and listening preferences, he had found a better way (than the manufacturer's stated geometry, or standard Baerwald geometry using manufacturer's stated effective length) to set up a particular tonearm. Others pestered him on it, and he politely refused to be harassed. The effort spent by one person in particular on harassing him about this subject could fill a small magazine issue, and may have closed down two threads. I thought it would do this thread in, but he left some hints about it, and I did some analysis to figure out Dertonarm's 'geometry' including the "weightings" you speak about. It took me about 10mins to come up with it. If you did not read the analysis above, the short version is that assumes IEC records, and is basically a cross between Stevenson's 'tilt' and Lofgren A's curve shape. It achieves lower average distortion in the place where he wants to achieve lower distortion (second half of the record), and achieves sharply lower average distortion in the last 10% of the record for long records than either of the standard setups, especially when those tonearms/carts have been set up for DIN. It is, as he has stated, entirely a matter of choice based on his record selection and his priorities on where on the record he wants to hear his distortion (or lack of it). It is decidedly not 'new math'.

#3) I think all of us, including the dastardly Dertonarm, get that minute changes and ball-busting accuracy requirements for one or two of the parameters will necessitate the same accuracy requirements for ALL the geometric inputs (though inner-most groove by its very nature must have some flexibility because one does not newly align (or set up a new headshell) for every particular length). If you read his posting history, it is blatantly obvious he shares your opinion. On the other hand, bad implementation of offset angle is bad - on any geometry on any tonearm.

As an aside, as far as I can tell, the supplied lengths and angle for your signature tonearm don't match the null points noted in the manual. Not having seen the supplied protractor, I can only presume it was in fact like a jig so that people could set their cart perfectly straight without deviating from appropriate offset angle, and then the overhang would fall into place shown on the protractor. Using the accuracy as stated, one would not have come up with the same null points as you did, which means that anyone using a protractor other than yours would have been off Baerwald by a decent bit, even if they had managed to get the offset angle and mounting distance perfect.

#4) If you read his posting history, you can glean a fair bit of his history (who he is, what he has done, etc). A little bit of digging and you can find more. I don't know him personally but have discovered a little on these threads and more elsewhere. Without doing the digging on you, one would not know who you are either. As to the protractor, other people challenged him on the subject, and rather than complain about being attacked, he made it. He is now offering it out. Is it more expensive than a laminated piece of cardboard? Yes. Is it for everyone or is necessary for achieving good sound? No. But neither is a gold-plated tonearm with diamonds on the headshell.

If you have but one or two tonearms, it may not be for you. If you have a half dozen, it may be cheaper than buying a half dozen protractors specifically designed for those half dozen arms. One could obviously make one's own 'mirrored' protractor using a CAD program, printing on clear plastic and mounting that on cardboard with some aluminum foil in between. But that is beyond most people who don't have CAD design experience. I don't have anything better than SketchUp, which is kind of a PITA to use, and I figure that if I don't like mine, I can probably sell it and not lose too much money on it. And in the meantime, I will have a cheaper tonearm-specific protractor for my more than half-dozen arms than I would if I bought just one. And I will have a universal protractor which will work on other tonearms. And I expect that it will be easy to use so that my conscientious set up will take less time and back pain than it would otherwise. I know nothing of the extra goodies/modifications yet other than what he has written, so cannot comment. You could send him an email and ask him yourself.
John Gordon , you are new to Audiogon. This is your first thread´s reply which is ok. I am wondering about your conclusions which run on a string, IMHO the only intention to undermine Dertonarm`s reputation. I am not going into detail, T_Bone did in a very persuasive way. If you are really an expert on tonearm design you may have a different approach to this topic as you used it.

Best & Fun Only
Thuchan
Peter:
Earlier in the thread you asked a question regarding SME and arc protractors (3.11.11)

Surely with arms like these the crucial thing is to determine the effective length as accurately as possible and then set the appropriate pivot-to-spindle distance, again as accurately as possible."

Thom then goes on to miss the point and talk about another issue which fact you then gently draw to his attention.
Then Dertonarm says:

But back to the SME V, which was when introduced anticipated like no other tonearm ever before or ever after.
The SME V is unique in the sense that it's offset and effective length (at least it’s designers thought so and intended it to be that way...) are fixed and pre-determined. Problem is, that SME Ltd. took for granted that each and every cartridge manufacturer would strictly follow IEC standards regarding stylus-mounting slots distance. Which of course they did not.
Now there is the legendary SME slide base to allow sliding the whole tonearm back and forth. That way the arm kind of "moves to the wanted alignment spot".
In theory....
The fact that the fixed offset angle of the fixed headshell isn't really a feature which eases things in any way did not really appeal to the SME engineers in their strive for setting the technical frontier in tonearm design."


Now, apart from the tone (hopefully humorously intended, but easily taken as arrogant and disrespectful) and the assumptions regarding the motivation for the design, there are two very elementary errors:

the first is assuming that the SME has a fixed offset and fixed effective length. It has a nominal offset, and nominal effective length. The misunderstanding here arises from conflating cartridge offset angle and headshell angle. In the SME the headshell angle is fixed and decided by the geometry selected by the designer (Baerwald/LofgrenA IEC). Once this is decided, another dimension follows, namely, linear offset (LO), and this is then a constant for the hardware and given by the effective length times the sine of the cartridge offset angle.

When a cartridge is fitted it retains the headshell angle (within the limits of the mounting hole clearances), and consequently the linear offset remains unchanged. So if you mount a cartridge with say a 12mm mounting hole to Stylus (MH2S) as opposed to one of 9mm MH2S the effective length increases and the cartridge offset decreases, and with a 6mm MH2S the opposite occurs. There is no twisting cartridges unless there is a misalignment within the cartridge (can of worms left unopened...). Only the base needs to be adjusted to supply the correct mounting distance (and therefore overhang) to align the two nulls.

I hope I have explained this well enough. It is something over which even some well respected tonearm designers appear to get confused...try drawing it out on paper.

The second error is assuming that any standard for cartridge mounting hole to stylus distance was implicit in the design. In fact, the opposite could be argued, as this parameter is only relevant in setting up an SME if you use an arc protractor, which is arguably not as universal as a two point, (which can be used with any arm and cartridge) and with the SME is easy to use, owing to its clever sliding base.

To use an arc with the SME V you need to measure the effective length accurately (or as accurately as you can) then obtain and adjust the mounting distance until ideally the two nulls are squared off as per Baerwald/LofgrenA IEC. .

Dertonarm says

"The SME V is a super strict 9"/Baerwald IEC-standard tonearm.

The "super strict" 9"V and the V12 share the same geometry, ie Baerwald/LofgrenA IEC. TPerhaps the V-12 is super strict 12". (I believe the 300 series are actually DIN as opposed to IEC, which should actually appeal to DerTonarm, as he, correctly, in my view, advocates a more general alignment to allow for inner radii less than the IEC standard)

You can't really align him a Loefgren or Stevenson curve with good results."
Lofgren B IEC is simply a matter of sliding the base slightly forward - no fiddling with the cartridge screws.

Dertonarm said in another thread re SME (ironically given the 300 alignment mentioned above)

"The SME 300 series is one of the very few tonearms which does come with a kind of "fixed" geometry in ALL parameters. Given its unability to adjust offset, overhang (we can just move the base - which we shouldn't ... - NOT the cartridge ) and effective length, it surely is a fairly unique sample...

...SME took for granted all industry standards of its day (early 1980ies) and said:

"well, if all cartridge designers do obey to and follow the standards given and if all LPs are cut following the new IEC standard, then evrything will be perfect with our new tonearm - it will be the "best tonearm in the world"............"

But the world is an imperfect one and many people do want to go their own ways.

The new SME surely was the LEAST UNIVERSAL tonearm ever designed .......
It is for sure the one tonearm which gives almost no possibilities to adjust to specific cartridge needs or to different arcs."

I make no claims for SME universality, but all the above is simply laughable, or misleading.

So, Peter, it looks to me like you are setting up the SME correctly. The only issue is that you should use Baerwald/LofgrenA IEC nulls. If you mount your cartridge as accurately as you can in the headshell, then align to the nulls you should be very close. If you have measured your actual effective length, and thereby obtained a mounting distance for the alignment, you can use an arc to check.

Hope all this is of use.
John