Dave Brubeck

Rok2id,
Thanks you for your kind comments.When people are in my listening room they all notice and comment on the Miles Davis picture.Thay feel he`s starring at them.
Regards,

Rok2id,
"Sameness" is a matter of perspective. When you live overseas what sounded all the same starts to get differentiated after a while.

It seems that you are determined to win the argument about "greatness" -- whatever it takes. But this is an argument you can never win -- no matter how many rabbits you pull out of the hat -- because what are really saying is "I am not crazy about his music so he cannot have been great", which is silly, of course. We all have our preferences but most of us will leave it at that.

As I pointed out earlier, which you have not replied to, is that while it is true that greatness is in the eye of the public, it is also true that greatness is in the eye of the beholder. It is like beauty. Saying that a work of art is not beautiful backs you into a corner because there are inevitably those who will disagree with you. Ergo, you cannot win the argument.

Now -- after two failed attempts -- you have a third argument to bolster your feelings that Brubeck was not great -- since your assertion that he did not play in clubs -- but he did -- and since your assertion that the critics did not like him -- but many did -- have fallen a bit flat. I note that you have not responded after I clearly showed that your first two assertions were false.

Your third and most recent assertion is that no one followed Brubeck so he cannot have been great. Your argument is specious. There have been many great artists and many geniuses in all walks of life throughout history who were never followed. In the world of music, my question to you is "Who followed Art Tatum?" No one that I know of. Certainly not Oscar Peterson who quit playing piano for a number of months after he first heard Art Tatum play, so overwhelmed was he by what he had heard.

Art Tatum and Dave Brubeck were originals. They both broke the mold. No one could follow them without being derivative. In that sense, if one wished to be negative about this, all followers could be branded as unoriginal, imitators and mere copyists -- which would be an equally specious assertion.

Greatness as a composer or as a player? Two different things.

I rank him extremely high and a unique innovator as a composer, and one of many fine pianists as a player. He also had a knack for letting people around him shine.

Franky, there are so many good pianists I find it hard to single out the groundbreaking geniuses. I'm much into Masabumi Kikuchi at the moment.

Koto Song is to this date one of my all time favorite tunes ever written.

Just some random thoughts ...

Sabai,
This has been an interesting thread with many good comments. It`s pretty clear that we`re all passionate about jazz musib.
What I don`t understand Sabai is your response to Rok2id, you seem very determined to make him hold Brubeck to your level of esteem. Rok doeos`nt and that should be enough. Certainly you can disagree with him but why are you so intent on him accepting your view of Brubeck`s greatness?

What more can Rok say? He won`t change your opinion and you are`nt going to change his. Simply put Brubeck is great to some and less than great for others. Why is that hard to accept and understand?
Regards,

Sabai:

First, this is not an argument. It's a discussion. I made a promise not to argue anymore and I have kept it. I don't even think you and I have a disagreement. Let's start over.

The OP started a thread about Brubeck. I weighed in with a short story, as did a few others. So far so good. Then the OP refered to Brubeck as a JAZZ GIANT. I am not sure what that means to him or you, but to me, it means the guys / gals who sit around the table on the Mount Olympus of the Jazz Universe. Just a handful. And in my opinion, Brubeck will not be there. He will be with the other 99% of the Jazz world, good player, well respected. Made some CDs that were very popular. Brought pleasure to millions. Had fame and fortune. Had a very nice career.
GREAT is not the word at issue here. JAZZ GIANT is at issue. My Ford Fusion Sport, I think it's GREAT, but as GREAT cars go, it does not hold a candle to the Ford Model T. The model T was a GIANT.
So what you and I think is fun to talk about. The guys on MT Olympus are put there by forces way beyond us.

The 'sameness' thingy was something O-10 and I talked about some time ago. He is into 'world' music. I just wanted to pull his chain and used Ellington as support for my position.

Everything else I said as pertains to Jazz clubs and atmosphere being important to Jazz development, I stand by it. Sadly, a lot of those nurturing enviroments have disappeared. As with all things, social conditions play / played a major role in music, and those conditions have changed. That is reflected in the music today.
Cheers.